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Post by SURESHOT on Jan 5, 2023 7:47:59 GMT -5
There are some Federal Large rifle magnum primers 215 out there for sale,, like anything else they are a little higher now days, I have used on various conversion the Vortex strike eagles 4x24x50 30 mm tube with no issues, (so far) hard to be at the price of $319.00,
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Post by sew on Jan 5, 2023 8:12:09 GMT -5
With the comparatively light powder loads of the relatively faster powders mentioned, I think you will be ok with the regular large rifle primers.
This may help: try knurling your bullets.
Scope and/or scope base problems seems like a likely problem(s).
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 5, 2023 8:19:37 GMT -5
Dave; I shoot a 44 cal SML CVA Hunter...here is a pic of a sized bullet (I shoot paper patched cast bullets in mine) without the patch that I ran down the bore this morning to see if my rifling matches yours. Evidently this is the correct "print" for CVA rifling. Yours seems to match this print to a "T". My gun shoots one hole at 100 yards and I found that not only the load is important but the fit of the bullet is critical....you may have to play with both to get ideal accuracy. I size my bullets to allow a one hand push on the ram rod and in my gun that is ideal....your results may differ. Problem solved...head to the range and enjoy!
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Post by ballistic on Jan 5, 2023 10:37:13 GMT -5
With 4198 I doubt the primer is the issue. CCI 34 is a large rifle primer that acts like a magnum primer. It’s been compared to a Winchester large rifle primer which is on the hot side for a large rifle primer. The primer type could be changed to improve a good grouping setup to see if it improves the group or lowers the standard deviation. I actually prefer large rifle over magnum in most of my magnum rifles and all of my muzzleloaders. JMO
Hope you get it shooting - it sounds like a ring or scope issue.
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 5, 2023 11:58:31 GMT -5
Dave; I shoot a 44 cal SML CVA Hunter...here is a pic of a sized bullet (I shoot paper patched cast bullets in mine) without the patch that I ran down the bore this morning to see if my rifling matches yours. Evidently this is the correct "print" for CVA rifling. Yours seems to match this print to a "T". My gun shoots one hole at 100 yards and I found that not only the load is important but the fit of the bullet is critical....you may have to play with both to get ideal accuracy. I size my bullets to allow a one hand push on the ram rod and in my gun that is ideal....your results may differ. Problem solved...head to the range and enjoy!
Thanks for taking the time to do that flattopusa. Yes, I agree that my groove prints are very much like that! |
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 5, 2023 17:00:01 GMT -5
Okay, so it has been spitting wet snow and freezing drizzle all day but after I remounted the scope I decided to take a few shots anyway from the back door of my shop. I can only get out 33 yards from the back door. The simple target I used is just typing paper with a 3" circle. I have better targets now and will be using them when I can use my 100 yard range again. So the first shot was left of the circle so I made a gestimate adjustment and taped the hole over. My next 3 shots are basically in one hole. 275 Parker BE stock bullets (no sizing) over 60 grains of IMR 4198. If it stays this way I will be a happy camper! I think I have attached a photo of the target but I don't see it yet. Attachments:
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Post by dennis on Jan 5, 2023 20:26:01 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with that
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 8, 2023 14:16:02 GMT -5
Follow up and success after learning big lessons. After my last post I went out to 100 yards using 60 grains IMR 4198 and two different bullets. Parker 275 BE and Hornady 250 FTX. Very frustrating to say the least 4" spreads without wool wads and my best with wads was 2" using the FTX but not all groups were even that good. I even changed scopes and that didn't seem to help. After pouring through the posts and watching Hank's videos again I decided to go straight for 65 grains 4198 with the Parker 275 BE for my best chance at obturation and did not use wads. That did the trick! I ran a brass brush through the barrel in and out once and then dry patched a few strokes before this group. First time I've cleaned the gun and not much fouling really after 60 plus shots. My fouling shot hit the bullseye and the next FOUR shots are in the group lower left of center. Extreme spread of less than 1/2"! When I first converted the rifle I wanted to stay low on the charge since I am new to this game. Turns out that didn't work for this gun. After this group I tried the 250 FTX's with the same charge of 65 grains 4198. Without a wad they were terrible flyers but with a wad the group basically moved over top of the same area on the target as the BE's and 1 3/8" spread out of 5 more shots so not terrible and usable on deer but wads will be required with this gun using those bullets apparently. The FTX has rounded bottom corners so seems to need the wads. The BE's have a flatter bottom and thinner jacket so obturate easier.  I haven't posted that target but will if someone wants me to. |
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Post by sew on Jan 8, 2023 17:38:51 GMT -5
Try knurling the bullets also. That might help.
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klook
Junior Member
Posts: 67 
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Post by klook on Jan 9, 2023 19:05:03 GMT -5
Do you mean knurling when not using a sabot?
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Post by sew on Jan 9, 2023 20:38:32 GMT -5
Yes.
This might not be what a person wants to read; but unless a person is going to target shoot, there is no real practical purpose in getting a 275BE to shoot well, if hunting anything larger than varmints is planned.
They are so soft that they are easy to get to shoot well but are extremely frangible, even down at 2,000’/sec. Been down there, done that.
In that bullet category, I’d try the 278 AMs first, then 275 Furys if unsuccessful with the 278s/wad.
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 10, 2023 8:35:36 GMT -5
Yes. This might not be what a person wants to read; but unless a person is going to target shoot, there is no real practical purpose in getting a 275BE to shoot well, if hunting anything larger than varmints is planned. They are so soft that they are easy to get to shoot well but are extremely frangible, even down at 2,000’/sec. Been down there, done that. In that bullet category, I’d try the 278 AMs first, then 275 Furys if unsuccessful with the 278s/wad. Thank you for this information Sew. It confirms what I have been seeing on the message board. I will take your advice. I have some Fury 275 star tip MZ's coming but also see 275 star tips with plastic tips on the website. Will the MZ's work ok or do I need to get some with plastic tips? Where do you find the 278 AM's? Also, what do you think of the Hornady FTX 250 grain? I shot another group with them yesterday using 65 gr IMR 4198 with wool wads but not getting groups much better than 2" at 100 yards? Has anyone had luck with all copper bullets in the Scouts? Again, I would like to thank everyone that has responded to my posts. I'm learning a lot and am very grateful! |
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Post by sew on Jan 10, 2023 20:51:45 GMT -5
Dave,
My experiences with bore sized 45s is moderately limited and primarily with a heavily built 700ML/26” Brux. So , for most of your questions, I hope others will answer.
I think someone recommended initially using the less expensive Furys to work up loads and finish with the tipped versions.
Pittman Muzzleloading bullets for the AccuMaxes.
The FTX, my understanding, is a streamlined XTP. I’d expect at least 1”, 3-shot groups.
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Post by booner22 on Jan 10, 2023 22:05:04 GMT -5
Yes. This might not be what a person wants to read; but unless a person is going to target shoot, there is no real practical purpose in getting a 275BE to shoot well, if hunting anything larger than varmints is planned. They are so soft that they are easy to get to shoot well but are extremely frangible, even down at 2,000’/sec. Been down there, done that. In that bullet category, I’d try the 278 AMs first, then 275 Furys if unsuccessful with the 278s/wad. Thank you for this information Sew. It confirms what I have been seeing on the message board. I will take your advice. I have some Fury 275 star tip MZ's coming but also see 275 star tips with plastic tips on the website. Will the MZ's work ok or do I need to get some with plastic tips? Where do you find the 278 AM's? Also, what do you think of the Hornady FTX 250 grain? I shot another group with them yesterday using 65 gr IMR 4198 with wool wads but not getting groups much better than 2" at 100 yards? Has anyone had luck with all copper bullets in the Scouts? Again, I would like to thank everyone that has responded to my posts. I'm learning a lot and am very grateful! I have shot so far in my scout 275 accumax, 250 fury st2, 250xtp, and 200sst. all have shown 1.5 inch or better group size at 100 yrds. mamy well below that. i woukd feel comfortable hunting with any of them. |
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 30, 2023 7:45:55 GMT -5
I'm revising this post with a follow up. I was still using the stock CVA scope base/rail and although I had locktite on the screws, I did not have it epoxied down as some suggested. The result after approx. 90 shots was that the front of the unsupported section of the scope base snapped off which resulted in a bent and destroyed scope. Yes indeed, the stock scope base is a type of pot metal. Fortunately, it was a Burris scope and should be replaced with the no questions asked warranty...we shall see. I now have the DNZ solid mount/ring system which is machined from solid 6061-T6 aluminum as it fits my current scope nicely and seems accurately machined and very strong. Hank's replacement base/rail looks like the best option for most scopes and made with super strong 7075 aluminum.
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2023 11:37:26 GMT -5
I've never shot anything except Hornady FTX 250 smooth sized, no wad, out of my CVA Apex with HIS using 58 to 65 grains of 4198. After recently increasing my powder charge to 65 grains (2620 fps ave.) I became aware that the cheap CVA supplied integral rail/rings was allowing my Leupold VX-III 4.5-14 1" tube scope to move forward. I have now installed a Hankins pic-rail and Hankins rings. I have not shot the rifle since installation, but am sure the scope will not move.
Pertinent to your original concern, my Hankins converted CVA barrel has shot extremely accurately from day one beginning with a charge weight of 58 grains with smooth sized FTX's to a "snug" "two hand push" fit. While I have not performed any scientific testing, my gut-feel from launching several hundred FTX's is they group better when sized tight to the bore. The rifle has been MODeer from day one and the FTX bullets have passed through a number of deer with no unusual entry or exit destruction. I only take broadside rib/lung shots. However, I have absolutely no reservation about taking a "Texas heart shot", or any variation there-of, if a really big buck thinks he is going to walk away after not showing me his ribs. haha
Continued good luck to you in dialing in your rifle.
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Post by mike on Jan 30, 2023 12:12:46 GMT -5
Incidentally, pursuant to your original concern about a raised machining burr formed on the arris of the grooves/lands intersections in your rifle's barrel, I have not noticed anything like what you described in my rifle's barrel. Not sure what difference there may be between the Bergara made barrel on my Apex and what CVA currently supplies on their rifles? I'll get the rifle out and use a cleaning-pick, like you did, to learn if I can feel any remaining burr formation. I have to question, based on the dimensions of a burr, how many rounds shot would it take to eliminate the burr due to explosive heat and friction?
I am certainly no expert in this field, but from my many decades of being a shooting enthusiast, I will opine that there should be ZERO burr formation remaining on the arris of the lands from the machining of the grooves (button-rifling or single-point machined, don't know about hammer-forging since metal is not being machined?). No self respecting barrel manufacturer would knowingly sell barrels with such an obvious defect.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 30, 2023 16:51:08 GMT -5
Bottom line, if it shoots well you are good to go.
Keep in mind that these guns are very budget minded and good accuracy from one is a big plus.
Many shoot ragged holes out of the gate but if not one can't complain as long as accuracy is acceptable.
If the barrel is a little rough it will smooth out after firing several shots, how many? maybe a good many.
A good machined base epoxied to the barrel is the only way to make sure your scope will stay put, also use good rings.
Break actions are hard on scopes as they soak up all the barrel vibrations being mounted to the barrel.
are you pushing the bullet all the way through the barrel and inspecting it or pushing it most of the way in and pushing it back out the bore?
Reason for asking is, burrs can be made on the bore when boring for the plug or when the 45-70 chamber was cut, I have seen this happen before.
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Post by curiousdave on Feb 1, 2023 7:41:45 GMT -5
Incidentally, pursuant to your original concern about a raised machining burr formed on the arris of the grooves/lands intersections in your rifle's barrel, I have not noticed anything like what you described in my rifle's barrel. Not sure what difference there may be between the Bergara made barrel on my Apex and what CVA currently supplies on their rifles? I'll get the rifle out and use a cleaning-pick, like you did, to learn if I can feel any remaining burr formation. I have to question, based on the dimensions of a burr, how many rounds shot would it take to eliminate the burr due to explosive heat and friction? I am certainly no expert in this field, but from my many decades of being a shooting enthusiast, I will opine that there should be ZERO burr formation remaining on the arris of the lands from the machining of the grooves (button-rifling or single-point machined, don't know about hammer-forging since metal is not being machined?). No self respecting barrel manufacturer would knowingly sell barrels with such an obvious defect. Thanks Mike for the comments. I now have over 100 rounds through this barrel and it has definitely smoothed out the sharp burred corners. Pushing the bullet through the rifling still leaves scratch lines on both corners of the rifling land corners and nothing noticeable from the lands themselves as if the lands have a slight 'cup' in the center? For a comparison, I recently purchased a second CVA Scout V2 45-70 rifle, this one is the camo version with the burnt bronze Cerakote barrel. I figured that this one would certainly be rifled in a different batch than my stainless model so would be a good comparison. I have not converted this one yet. The rifling on the camo version is similar and prints a similar pattern on a bullet pushed through and although the land corners are nice and sharp, no real burr can be felt with a plastic pick as I slide from land to groove. My thought at this point is that the rifling is perhaps supposed to have raised corners on the lands and that is what aids in accuracy of these barrels? flattopusa's photo seems to show a similar pattern. |
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Post by curiousdave on Feb 1, 2023 7:48:37 GMT -5
Bottom line, if it shoots well you are good to go. Keep in mind that these guns are very budget minded and good accuracy from one is a big plus. Many shoot ragged holes out of the gate but if not one can't complain as long as accuracy is acceptable. If the barrel is a little rough it will smooth out after firing several shots, how many? maybe a good many. A good machined base epoxied to the barrel is the only way to make sure your scope will stay put, also use good rings. Break actions are hard on scopes as they soak up all the barrel vibrations being mounted to the barrel. are you pushing the bullet all the way through the barrel and inspecting it or pushing it most of the way in and pushing it back out the bore? Reason for asking is, burrs can be made on the bore when boring for the plug or when the 45-70 chamber was cut, I have seen this happen before. Thanks hillbill. Yes, indeed the burrs have smoothed out and I would guess it took over 50 shots or so for it to be noticeable. Very good point also on the scope base being mounted directly on the barrel. I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense. In answer to your last question, yes, I push the bullet all the way through after removing the breech plug. Check out my recent reply to Mike for more info on this. |
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