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Post by curiousdave on Jan 4, 2023 12:57:56 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I recently purchased a new Scout V2 45-70 stainless w/muzzlebreak and converted it to SML with HIS. Something that bothered me about the rifle right away is that the rifling has sharp raised corners where the grooves meet the lands. I can visually see they are raised up and can feel them with a plastic toothpick when you slide across the land toward the cut groove. I have never noticed this in rifling before. When I size a bullet and push it through the bore and out the other end there are distinct scratches or cuts in the bullet at the junctions of every groove to land corner and only on the corners. Parker 275 BE's can be pushed through with moderate resistance and they show it best. Resistance seems uniform all the way through so that is good. I am having trouble getting it to group but have not ruled out scope issues yet either. Has anyone seen this before or did I get a lemon? Any suggestions? Should I lap the bore to remove the sharp edges or leave them alone? Obviously, I can't send it back to CVA as I've already converted it.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 4, 2023 13:24:51 GMT -5
Dave; Can you post a good pic of the bullet after you have pushed it through the bore?
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Post by SURESHOT on Jan 4, 2023 14:19:21 GMT -5
what size group are you having, and have you tried wool wads, there is a screw under the for arm stock, it has a set screw holding it in place, this helps the stock to snap on, others here have helped me with this, if you back out the screw slightly, it firms up the fit, and has improved my accuracy with a couple of these guns ( I lock it back down with BLUE 242 loctite) I use the IMR 4198 and the Pittman bullets, and have used the Parker 275 and they did very well also.... just my thoughts
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 4, 2023 15:16:10 GMT -5
/Users/davidnoble/Desktop/IMG_20230104_141009102~2.jpg flattopusa I just tried to post a picture of the bullet but it doesn't appear to have worked? I tried to drag and drop the photo into this box. Okay, I think I got it on here now. What do you guys think? Attachments:
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 4, 2023 15:19:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip on the stock Sureshot. I did see that in another post so had done that before my last testing. My groups have gone from occasionally touching to moving 3 to 5 inches. I did get the wool wads from Parker but have only tried one. I did use Purple Vibra-tite on the scope base attached to the gun and that seems secure. I just now noticed however that the clamps have loosened slightly where the rings attach to the base. I will try to shoot more groups in the next few days.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 4, 2023 16:07:03 GMT -5
From the way it looks in the photo the bullets are being scribed by the edge of the rifling and I cant see any other area of the rifling (the flat) that is touching the bullet when its run down the bore. I know there is no obturation taking place because the bullet has not been shot but I believe you should see some marks from the rifling flat when you run the bullet down the bore if they are smooth sized. It may be faint but the pic doesnt show anything that I can see. What is your groove diameter (dimension across the flats excluding the edges you feel are raised), and what do you need to size the bullets to get them to fit in the bore? Too bad you cannot recover a shot bullet...that will tell you more.
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Post by dennis on Jan 4, 2023 16:43:41 GMT -5
I would contact the person who did the conversion for a fix
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jeepeater
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Post by jeepeater on Jan 4, 2023 17:26:27 GMT -5
Hi Guys, I recently purchased a new Scout V2 45-70 stainless w/muzzlebreak and converted it to SML with HIS. Something that bothered me about the rifle right away is that the rifling has sharp raised corners where the grooves meet the lands. I can visually see they are raised up and can feel them with a plastic toothpick when you slide across the land toward the cut groove. I have never noticed this in rifling before. When I size a bullet and push it through the bore and out the other end there are distinct scratches or cuts in the bullet at the junctions of every groove to land corner and only on the corners. Parker 275 BE's can be pushed through with moderate resistance and they show it best. Resistance seems uniform all the way through so that is good. I am having trouble getting it to group but have not ruled out scope issues yet either. Has anyone seen this before or did I get a lemon? Any suggestions? Should I lap the bore to remove the sharp edges or leave them alone? Obviously, I can't send it back to CVA as I've already converted it. Sharp rifling is actually a good thing, and shouldn’t be the cause of poor accuracy. I wouldn’t lap it to remove the sharp edges. If resistance is uniform, at most I would hit it with some JB paste. The bases that come on these rifles are not the best quality. I replaced mine with machined picatinny rails from Hankins, and bedded them with epoxy to help eliminate any issues. These things have a tendency to be rough on optics due to the way the bases sit right over the charge and the recoil they produce. Definitely adjust the forearm if needed. I had one that started vertical stringing. The forearm was loose and after adjusting the vertical stringing was cured. |
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 4, 2023 18:04:01 GMT -5
My thoughts also regarding the rifling scratches flattopusa. I haven't been able to get a decent measurement of rifling diameter but the Parker 275 BE's including the one pictured average .4515 " diameter so I'm sure the flats of the lands are larger than that. The barrel crown also appears to have a very sharp edge with a light burr so it's hard to get a good measurement of the lands or grooves with a caliper. I could spend some time with a small telescope gauge and micrometer to see what I can come up with.
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 4, 2023 18:11:28 GMT -5
jeapeater, I have wondered this myself about the sharp rifling burrs. It might even be a benefit as it might get a good grip in the bullet to get it spinning quickly? I've not personally seen rifling with sharp raised corners before and I had seen comments on recent posts about some of the newest Scouts having accuracy issues so it got me wondering. As for the base, I did lock tire the screws but I'm sure you are correct that it isn't the best base.
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 4, 2023 18:20:08 GMT -5
I did the conversion myself dennis but if someone else had done it, that would be a good option. I have a good number of years as a machinist and have lathes, mills etc but am an amateur with custom rifles. Machining the barrel for the breach plug conversion was quite easy and went well. Head space is on the money and the installed modules fit nicely in the action. I truly appreciate the help I'm getting on this message board. I'm here to learn.
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 4, 2023 19:06:11 GMT -5
Just an FYI on the loads I've tried: At first I was using 57 grains by weight of IMR 4198 and 250 grain Hornady FTX bullets sized to push down the bore with light pressure, then tried the 275 grain Parker BE's when they arrived. They push through the barrel with moderate pressure without sizing. I then upped the charge to 60 grains of IMR 4198 using the Parkers hoping that would help Obturate the bullets if that was an issue. I'm going to remount the scope (Vortex Diamondback 4-12x40) from the bottom up and shoot it again in a few days when the weather here in Wisconsin clears up. If that doesn't work I will change scopes and try again. I will let you know what I find out. In the meantime, any suggestions are appreciated.
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jeepeater
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Post by jeepeater on Jan 4, 2023 20:16:20 GMT -5
jeapeater, I have wondered this myself about the sharp rifling burrs. It might even be a benefit as it might get a good grip in the bullet to get it spinning quickly? I've not personally seen rifling with sharp raised corners before and I had seen comments on recent posts about some of the newest Scouts having accuracy issues so it got me wondering. As for the base, I did lock tire the screws but I'm sure you are correct that it isn't the best base. Hit it with some JB and see if it helps the burrs. You say you get bullets sometimes touching, others move several inches. Are you getting bad groups when it opens up, or is the point of impact shifting? |
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Post by YankeeReb on Jan 4, 2023 21:08:49 GMT -5
Like others have said the sharp edged lands of the rifling is a good thing especially for a muzzleloader. I think unless you have a crown problem it’s a matter of working up a load that the gun likes. Btw I see the sharp edged land marks on your bullet. If you can get your hands on some imr 4759 @ 38gr with that parker I bet you would get same hole groups or close to it @100 yd.
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klook
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Post by klook on Jan 4, 2023 21:14:39 GMT -5
Get a decent base, I have Jeff's. Change the scope and with heavier loads get strong rings. With the 57gr load of 4198 recoil is light and my Scout shoots well with it. My barrel was sharp to say the least when I got it and mine is choked for about 5 or 6 inches. I noticed the burrs in the muzzle also and was not pleased but I cannot blame any of that for poor accuracy. Most recommend the wool wads made in Maine....not sure what the difference is but they do. Groups that move dramatically are usually base, ring, optics related. I have seen other causes, but rare. Try another powder or primer before going bonkers on the barrel.
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Post by YankeeReb on Jan 4, 2023 21:23:14 GMT -5
What kind of scope do you have and did you try it on another rifle that it worked well on ? The eastern maine wool wads work well I buy them here in milo maine. I use the ones made for a 50 cal in my 45. It’s also possible that you need to touch up the barrel crown.
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Post by 71yella2 on Jan 4, 2023 21:44:08 GMT -5
Got the wife a CVA optima couple years ago and rifling in it has raised corners on each land but they seem to be rounded, I see this on the sabots once I shoot em. It shoots really well with the.40/200 shockwaves in the supplied sabots and 2 T7 pellets.
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Post by buckeye68 on Jan 4, 2023 21:57:03 GMT -5
Here is what I would do if it was my gun.
1 - Check the set screw on the forearm and make sure it locks up tight with zero play. If you haven’t used blue Loctite on the set screw, now’s the time.
2 - Remove the stock CVA pic rail and buy a Hanks Precision pic rail.
3 - Buy a set of Hank’s Precision 4 or 6 bolt scope rings. Mount the rear scope ring in the last slot,, it will put the over top of the pic rail bolts. Mount the front ring as close to the turret body without touching it, this will get you as close to the front bolts as possible.
4 - I would cut off any unused pic rail that forward of the front scope ring and JB weld it down to the barrel. If your not using it, cut it off because of barrel flex.
5 - Install your rings and make sure you push them forward before your torque them down to the rail. Use blue Loctite (purple is low strength). Install your scope and torque the top ring cap down with blue Litite.
6 - Buy a scope level.
If you are shooting a PROVEN load out of a CVA break action with large Magnum rifle primers with:
62 grains of 4198 with a 300 grain Pittman
53 grains of 4227 with a 275 grain Pittman
53 grains of 4227 with a 265 grain Fury
65 grains of 4198 with a 265 grain Fury
65 grains of 4198 with a 275 grain Pittman
If it still doesn’t group
7 - Change out the scope with someone else’s scope that on a SML that you know is proven to hold up to recoil.
8 - If you think the crown has a burr, polish it off or cut a new crown. The crown should be sharpe and burr free.
As far as the way your bullet looks, it looks like it should. Your bullet is ride down the rifling and it will have marks on the jacket from the rifling.
Now that your gun is built, head space is correct, leave your telescope gauge and micrometer at home and set your die by how the bullet goes down the barrel. It’s a feel thing.
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Post by spikes on Jan 4, 2023 22:22:44 GMT -5
My scout has the same sharp rifling. Iv'e never paid it any attention until reading this post. But given the right loads, its shoots lights out.
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Post by curiousdave on Jan 5, 2023 7:24:44 GMT -5
Wow, lots of great suggestions here. Thanks guys! It sounds like my raised corner rifling might be common and not a bad thing? That was my biggest concern to start with. I am going to leave that alone and start over after re-mounting the same scope which is a new Vortex Diamondback 4-12x40. If the problem persists and the scope mounting doesn't appear to have moved, I have a new Burris 4.5-14x42 and will swap to that.
One more detail is that I am using CCI #34 large rifle primers. The are the only large rifle primers that I have been able to find. They are slightly thicker skin to prevent bump fires in semi autos and although not specifically magnum primers, the description says they have a magnum charge. They seem to have good reviews even from magnum centerfire guys. Anyone else using these?
So, another thing I have done is ordered another Scout V2 45-70 so I can visually inspect the rifling. I should have it early next week. This one is the camo version and from a different seller so I figured it would be highly unlikely that it was rifled in the same batch so should be a good comparison. If the rifling looks good or if I get my stainless version shooting well I will convert that one too and see how that one does. I did have a hard time finding one of these camo models but the stainless model as well and wonder if the demand is high because of these conversions to smokeless?
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