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Post by curiousdave on Dec 24, 2022 16:14:36 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I'm new to this SML adventure. I spent 40 years as a general machinist running a wide variety of manual and CNC equipment. I recently purchased a Scout V2 45-70 and installed Hanks HIS system in it. Excellent system Hank has designed! I have shot it some but am waiting on bullets for final sighting and load development using IMR 4198 and will not go past 65 grains by weight and 275 grain projectiles as suggested by Hank in his videos. I have a question relating to use of smokeless and haven't heard a logical answer as of yet. I have spent quite a bit of time on the board searching for this answer with no luck. I see quite a few excellent posts by members with a great deal of knowledge. So here's the question: Can smokeless power such as IMR 4198 be used on some conventional muzzleloaders if a properly designed ignition system was installed? My example would be something like a CVA 45 caliber Optima Muzzleloader. I believe these have a 1" diameter bergarra barrel, same as the Scout V2 so the wall thickness should be the same. Is it an issue with the barrel material or some other reason?
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 24, 2022 16:18:42 GMT -5
Type of steel used for barrels would be the issue.
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Post by curiousdave on Dec 24, 2022 16:55:55 GMT -5
Thanks but can you give me specifics? I don't see why they would use a lower quality or strength of steel for liability reasons. I also notice that the CVA Scout 45-70 retails for less ($445) than a .45 cal Accura (which comes in 45 cal for $695 at the low end) so cost of manufacture shouldn't be the reason? My original post used the Optima ML which doesn't come in 45 cal. but 50 cal only (my bad). However the CVA Scout 45-70 blued/black retails for $370. These figures are from the CVA webite just now. I see some descriptions for either as having stainless (some say 416 stainless) and some say 4140 steel. Eve the Traditions line of ML's have Crome moly steel barrels which should be 4140. Strangely, I noticed that as a rule, the CVA center fire rifles are less expensive. My first question regarded rifles with a 1" diameter barrel and 45 caliber. How about the Paramount? It appears to be based on a 700 action and has a stout barrel for stout loads of BH 209. I know CVA does't condone it but why can't someone use even a lighter charge of smokeless and is anyone doing this?
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 24, 2022 17:51:26 GMT -5
CVA's are made overseas in Europe. The laws in Europe dictate that a firearm used with black powder needs to be able to handle a specific pressure "charge" of black powder (which is low and really doesnt require high end pressure testing and certification), and, that a barrel to be used with smokeless powder be pressure tested and certified to the CIP pressure standard. The CVA cartridge guns have a working pressure of 70.000 pounds per square inch (that was told to me by CVA tech) and is tested in Europe to the CIP standard to achieve beyond that. The test pressure is higher than the working pressure. Black powder barrels are suitable for black powder only and modern barrel steel (high nickle content steel, 4140, etc), and stainless steel barrels are suitable for both black powder and smokeless powder. Its the material the barrel is made of and the pressure it can contain that dictates its use. So, if a barrel is stamped "black powder only" it means just that...it is a mild steel that cannot take the pressure stress of smokeless powder. Go on You Tube and see what smokeless powder can do to a "black powder only" barrel.
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 24, 2022 18:10:23 GMT -5
Thanks flattopusa.
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Post by gd357 on Dec 24, 2022 18:18:19 GMT -5
Thanks but can you give me specifics? I don't see why they would use a lower quality or strength of steel for liability reasons. I also notice that the CVA Scout 45-70 retails for less ($445) than a .45 cal Accura (which comes in 45 cal for $695 at the low end) so cost of manufacture shouldn't be the reason? My original post used the Optima ML which doesn't come in 45 cal. but 50 cal only (my bad). However the CVA Scout 45-70 blued/black retails for $370. These figures are from the CVA webite just now. I see some descriptions for either as having stainless (some say 416 stainless) and some say 4140 steel. Eve the Traditions line of ML's have Crome moly steel barrels which should be 4140. Strangely, I noticed that as a rule, the CVA center fire rifles are less expensive. My first question regarded rifles with a 1" diameter barrel and 45 caliber. How about the Paramount? It appears to be based on a 700 action and has a stout barrel for stout loads of BH 209. I know CVA does't condone it but why can't someone use even a lighter charge of smokeless and is anyone doing this? First, without being 100% positive, triple checked, and with a sworn affidavit from the maker of that particular barrel, are you willing to risk life and limb on a gamble? The barrel MAY be of suitable steel, but unless you know for sure... Don't risk it. If you have a way to test the steel in your barrel, by all means do so. The muzzleloader industry as a whole has been using "lower quality or strength steel" for years, because everyone who was into muzzleloading was using blackpowder with a patched round ball or conicals. Caplocks were a huge improvement over flintlocks. This was standard for hundreds years. Hard to affect positive change in manufacturing when you're on that type of a streak. Also considering that the stronger steels are much harder to machine, it's not hard to imagine why you might have barrels that won't withstand smokeless powder charges. Don't go in for the "lighter charge" route either. The pressure curve of smokeless is SIGNIFICANTLY steeper than any blackpowder alternative.
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Post by buckstuds on Dec 24, 2022 20:00:46 GMT -5
Last year I bought a cva accura mrx in 45 cal. Bought a DI plug from jeff for it. I watched jeffs video. I have shot it over 25 times with 50 gr of I4198 and a 250 gr BE. Extremely accurate and easy to shoot. I know this is taboo but the boss has a video and it worked for me.
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 24, 2022 22:03:47 GMT -5
Yes there are very specific black powder barrels that might or will withstand smokeless powder. The original question was about black powder guns in general. I am not going to grab some random bolt out of a scrap pile to bolt up high pressure steam lines. I’ll use properly stamped B7 studs. Would a grade 3 or possibly a grade 8 work? Maybe??? I’m not betting my personal safety or anyone else’s safety on it.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 24, 2022 22:46:53 GMT -5
There are to many variables to even begin to try such a thing. Cut and dried…it’s a guessing game. The manufacturer’s have the warning on them for a reason . And somebody at the range watching May get hurt because of this very topic. Because so and so said he did it without any problems…as of yet. I had a guy try to sell me a smoker barrel years ago …said he had over a hundred loads fired through it…… maybe … maybe not gonna blow up on the second? Third? Fourth owner? Maybe never? Is a couple hundred bucks worth your hand ? Your eyesight? Or maybe the guy sitting next to you? Not worth the risk. Just my nickels worth. I been shooting these things for over 10 years. Seen several pics of mishap’s over the years. Some result over this very topic Be safe above all Drop
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Post by curiousdave on Dec 25, 2022 6:58:16 GMT -5
Thanks guys and special thanks buckstuds for his comment. Lots of great answers here. I certainly understand the danger and am not running out to try smokeless in a random ML. I have seen the videos from CVA about the dangers of smokeless in their ML rifles, though I doubt the exploding ML were lightly loaded. My assumption (for what that's worth) is that the ML companies are covering their behinds by stating that you can't use 'any' amount of smokeless in their ML because they fear that random people will load the wrong powder or wrong amount and hurt themselves. As you all know here, loads must be carefully developed with powders of appropriate burn rate and volume. A mistake of the wrong type of powder or using volume instead of weighing the powder can be disastrous. This is just as true with custom SML. What I'm seeing in the SML community are not your run of the mill people. You guys take your loading seriously as you should. The general public cannot be trusted to behave like this. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that some specific ML are not as capable in the right hands. Of course I can't say with certainty that CVA uses the same steel for their ML as their center fires but it doesn't make sense to me that they would use inferior steel in their ML when they charge more for the ML. My question regarded .45 cal with 1" barrel. Just to be clear, I realize that a .50 caliber CVA ML has a thinner wall so certainly would handle less pressure. Paramounts are beefier of course and known to handle more pressure. And you all know that Savage made a SML but discontinued it. My assumption (yes, I know) is that knuckleheads used improper loads (or double loaded) and hurt themselves, then sued. Does anyone here have specific models of ML with certain known pressure capabilities that can handle smokeless if loaded properly?
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 25, 2022 7:58:03 GMT -5
Thanks guys and special thanks buckstuds for his comment. Lots of great answers here. I certainly understand the danger and am not running out to try smokeless in a random ML. I have seen the videos from CVA about the dangers of smokeless in their ML rifles, though I doubt the exploding ML were lightly loaded. My assumption (for what that's worth) is that the ML companies are covering their behinds by stating that you can't use 'any' amount of smokeless in their ML because they fear that random people will load the wrong powder or wrong amount and hurt themselves. As you all know here, loads must be carefully developed with powders of appropriate burn rate and volume. A mistake of the wrong type of powder or using volume instead of weighing the powder can be disastrous. This is just as true with custom SML. What I'm seeing in the SML community are not your run of the mill people. You guys take your loading seriously as you should. The general public cannot be trusted to behave like this. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that some specific ML are not as capable in the right hands. Of course I can't say with certainty that CVA uses the same steel for their ML as their center fires but it doesn't make sense to me that they would use inferior steel in their ML when they charge more for the ML. My question regarded .45 cal with 1" barrel. Just to be clear, I realize that a .50 caliber CVA ML has a thinner wall so certainly would handle less pressure. Paramounts are beefier of course and known to handle more pressure. And you all know that Savage made a SML but discontinued it. My assumption (yes, I know) is that knuckleheads used improper loads (or double loaded) and hurt themselves, then sued. Does anyone here have specific models of ML with certain known pressure capabilities that can handle smokeless if loaded properly? With all your experience and willingness to try new things, I say YOU can be the guinea pig and report back on your findings. My only advice is start off low on your powder charge and never hold the forearm with your hand. Good luck!
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 25, 2022 8:10:04 GMT -5
Another thing to consider is the strength and construction of the rifles action. I know for a fact that H&R manufactures two different actions that look the same for their break open models...the SB1 and SB2, if memory serves me. One action is for shotguns, black powder, and if I am not mistaken pistol cartridges, and the other is for centerfire rifle cartridges. I have a CVA BP and CVA cartridge rifles with the same action...looks to be the same anyway. Are they the same is the question? I should have asked CVA tech when I was talking to them about the CVA cartridge barrel pressure testing, but it made no difference to me because the CVA BP rifle was labeled "black powder only" and all I intended to use in that rifle was black powder. When I decided to have Hank build a break open SML then I researched the pressure thing. Anyway, in some part the rifles action might have some bearing on the strength of rifle as a whole to withstand the pressures of smokeless powder as well. I am off to hunt through Jan 3rd...maybe I will contact CVA when I get back to answer the action question.
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Post by ballistic on Dec 25, 2022 8:52:20 GMT -5
A few years back I was sending paramounts to a machinist to have them threaded for muzzlebrakes. He commented on how hard the steel was to machine vs standard stainless and chrome moly barrels for centerfire. I asked him if that made the barrels stronger. His response was that harder to machine does not always mean stronger. Barrels need the right combination of flex as well to be strong. Remingtons ultimate muzzleloader wasn’t even rated (warranty) for blackhorn 209 - shooters were/are still using it and converting it to better ignition systems- not a good idea for smokeless? The previous posts are correct - be careful - get an action and barrel rated for smokeless.
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klook
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by klook on Dec 25, 2022 9:29:19 GMT -5
And the PM's are flying behind the scenes.....lol.
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Post by curiousdave on Dec 25, 2022 10:21:08 GMT -5
I appreciate every single answer here. Thank you all. flatopusa makes a great point about the actions. I have a Traditions break action ML with a light alloy action. I highly doubt that it is as strong as a CVA break action center fire action. Another great point made by ballistic about barrel hardness/strength is spot on. My questions here are not to encourage reckless testing. I merely wanted to ask people with experience to give me educated answers. It would be interesting to know what pressure ratings have been done on some specific conventional ML models.
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 25, 2022 17:34:13 GMT -5
I appreciate every single answer here. Thank you all. flatopusa makes a great point about the actions. I have a Traditions break action ML with a light alloy action. I highly doubt that it is as strong as a CVA break action center fire action. Another great point made by ballistic about barrel hardness/strength is spot on. My questions here are not to encourage reckless testing. I merely wanted to ask people with experience to give me educated answers. It would be interesting to know what pressure ratings have been done on some specific conventional ML models. I hate to say this but....i know of 1 make of smoker that claims a American barrel . Yet if you talk to that barrel company they had Not done bussiness with them in YEARS !!! With no Real oversight of smokers ,(example - barrel land/groove dim.) id bet there are Many claims that wont hold water IMO . Why Risk It when even simpler claims can be legitimently questioned as sketchy ?? . I dont wanna trust that !!! Breech plug/ignition systems that dont/wont seal either without repair or replacement too . Blue skys work just fine no rainbow colors claimed to be ok allowed .
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Post by hillbill on Dec 25, 2022 21:21:53 GMT -5
As a general rule here on Hank's we don't even discuss the use of smokeless powder in a BP gun, why? It's far too easy for readers to take anything discussed out of context and get hurt.
Not to be a butt head but I would rather we would leave this topic for another forum.
Yes I know guys have done it and lived to tell about it but as a general rule it's like playing with fire if you know what I mean. If Jeff decides differently then he can tell everyone so.
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Post by curiousdave on Dec 26, 2022 5:54:45 GMT -5
Okay guys. I understand. I can see the potential problems. I will drop the subject. Thanks everyone for taking the time to answer.
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Post by jimbob on Dec 26, 2022 8:15:02 GMT -5
As a general rule here on Hank's we don't even discuss the use of smokeless powder in a BP gun, why? It's far too easy for readers to take anything discussed out of context and get hurt. Not to be a butt head but I would rather we would leave this topic for another forum. Yes I know guys have done it and lived to tell about it but as a general rule it's like playing with fire if you know what I mean. If Jeff decides differently then he can tell everyone so. +100
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