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Post by spikes on Dec 14, 2022 12:20:06 GMT -5
spikes: Unfortunate that bullet took a turn for the worse. I would have thought it would have had to hit hard bone, any chance a deflection from a branch? Im just happy I recovered her. Only meat I lost were the tenderloins, they were covered in guts. But the dogs still ate em! Its definitely possible I hit a branch. I was shooting from within the treeline cover out to a field. But the entry hole was still exactly where I was aiming. Do you think I could have nicked something so small that it didn't quite affect the bullet path but maybe did affect the spin or something? Thus causing it to act irregularly once entering the animal? have no clue. ive shot a lot of deer and this one is a new one for me.
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klook
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by klook on Dec 14, 2022 15:06:23 GMT -5
Klook, Here in NE rural Arkansas, the nearest private range of which I’m aware is 80 miles away. Don’t know about their rules. The public ranges are not where I want to be. So, I use a relatively solid fold up table, chair, shooting bags and shoot in agricultural fields. Where I shoot now, I can get to 800 yards. FWIW, I do have a suppressor/mb going through the waiting period. This should make the MLers’ usage more environmentally friendly and lightened my pocket book. I understand, I have a hunting camp like the old LL Bean ones setting at the edge of a blueberry field in Maine. Been in the family since 1960 when it was built. We have 300 yards from the front deck. No one for half a mile at least and no one that cared. Shot all I wanted when I wanted. But moving South has been great in many other ways. The backwoods hunting fishing lifestyle was sacrificed. Here in Tenn., someone lives on every small parcel for the whole State it seems, same in N Ga. I had literally miles of empty open woods and streams in Maine. But there were no deer in them either.
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Post by smokelessk on Dec 14, 2022 20:53:44 GMT -5
spikes: Unfortunate that bullet took a turn for the worse. I would have thought it would have had to hit hard bone, any chance a deflection from a branch? Im just happy I recovered her. Only meat I lost were the tenderloins, they were covered in guts. But the dogs still ate em! Its definitely possible I hit a branch. I was shooting from within the treeline cover out to a field. But the entry hole was still exactly where I was aiming. Do you think I could have nicked something so small that it didn't quite affect the bullet path but maybe did affect the spin or something? Thus causing it to act irregularly once entering the animal? have no clue. ive shot a lot of deer and this one is a new one for me. Had to do some thinking about the situation you mentioned. (This would be a one in a million perhaps shot scenario.) So, at high velocity impact speeds even a "soft" target is actually quite hard and capable of redirecting a projectile. Think skydiving for example, and your chute fails to open. You want to choose a "soft" place to land to increase the chance of survival. So you land in a body of water. Well, at that impact speed water is really pretty damn hard, chances you survive are pretty slim. Think flesh and organs, mostly a "water" based medium for absorbing the energy of a bullet. Fire a high velocity bullet that has a good chance of fragmenting into such a target and there's where you get your bullet "turning" on you. It is also related to rotational velocity as well. High rotating speeds increase the chance of fragmenting. I've seen bullets fired from a 22-250 actually "airburst" before reaching the target. Not likely a muzzleloader will ever push a projectile to this extent. When you combine high impact speeds with high rotation speeds on a "water based" target hitting a shoulder bone is really not necessary to experience what you are talking about. Yes, you could probably make the same shot 1,000 more times and never have that result again but that day your bullet exploded and the direction of the blast tore up her guts and left fragments behind. Have you ever shot a water jug or say a watermelon with a smokeless muzzleloader? That is the situation you created within her chest cavity. The energy these guns deliver to the target is truly like none other. The buck I plugged in the back of the neck that I posted the pics of. I knew when the trigger broke he was toast. When I took the shot I kind of expected a large exit hole in his throat. But it was not totally surprising to find the bullet stayed entirely in his neck. I did not directly hit the spine either. This was a "flesh wound." However the spine was destroyed, along with a large cavity created in the neck. The esophagus remained intact. I was not terribly surprised about not having an exit wound. I've shot a lot of deer in the head with this gun at close range (like 60 yards and under.) The damage is incredible, however there is no exit wound. The bullet blows up so quickly it just takes the whole impact area right out. Increase the distance though (therefore decreasing impact velocity) and the bullet blows a large hole out the backside of the head. Here's an entrance wound, 45 yards 300 grain Aeromax like 2,850 muzzle velocity. Impact speed probably not a whole lot less than that at 45 yards. Judge me if you want for my choice of shot placement, but I don't track deer. Also she was just 15 yards on my side of the property line. (Hence another reason I don't track deer, they always go for the thick stuff on the neighbors property.)
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Post by spikes on Dec 14, 2022 22:32:16 GMT -5
Im just happy I recovered her. Only meat I lost were the tenderloins, they were covered in guts. But the dogs still ate em! Its definitely possible I hit a branch. I was shooting from within the treeline cover out to a field. But the entry hole was still exactly where I was aiming. Do you think I could have nicked something so small that it didn't quite affect the bullet path but maybe did affect the spin or something? Thus causing it to act irregularly once entering the animal? have no clue. ive shot a lot of deer and this one is a new one for me. Had to do some thinking about the situation you mentioned. (This would be a one in a million perhaps shot scenario.) So, at high velocity impact speeds even a "soft" target is actually quite hard and capable of redirecting a projectile. Think skydiving for example, and your chute fails to open. You want to choose a "soft" place to land to increase the chance of survival. So you land in a body of water. Well, at that impact speed water is really pretty damn hard, chances you survive are pretty slim. Think flesh and organs, mostly a "water" based medium for absorbing the energy of a bullet. Fire a high velocity bullet that has a good chance of fragmenting into such a target and there's where you get your bullet "turning" on you. It is also related to rotational velocity as well. High rotating speeds increase the chance of fragmenting. I've seen bullets fired from a 22-250 actually "airburst" before reaching the target. Not likely a muzzleloader will ever push a projectile to this extent. When you combine high impact speeds with high rotation speeds on a "water based" target hitting a shoulder bone is really not necessary to experience what you are talking about. Yes, you could probably make the same shot 1,000 more times and never have that result again but that day your bullet exploded and the direction of the blast tore up her guts and left fragments behind. Have you ever shot a water jug or say a watermelon with a smokeless muzzleloader? That is the situation you created within her chest cavity. The energy these guns deliver to the target is truly like none other. The buck I plugged in the back of the neck that I posted the pics of. I knew when the trigger broke he was toast. When I took the shot I kind of expected a large exit hole in his throat. But it was not totally surprising to find the bullet stayed entirely in his neck. I did not directly hit the spine either. This was a "flesh wound." However the spine was destroyed, along with a large cavity created in the neck. The esophagus remained intact. I was not terribly surprised about not having an exit wound. I've shot a lot of deer in the head with this gun at close range (like 60 yards and under.) The damage is incredible, however there is no exit wound. The bullet blows up so quickly it just takes the whole impact area right out. Increase the distance though (therefore decreasing impact velocity) and the bullet blows a large hole out the backside of the head. Here's an entrance wound, 45 yards 300 grain Aeromax like 2,850 muzzle velocity. Impact speed probably not a whole lot less than that at 45 yards. Judge me if you want for my choice of shot placement, but I don't track deer. Also she was just 15 yards on my side of the property line. (Hence another reason I don't track deer, they always go for the thick stuff on the neighbors property.) Thx for the detailed reply Smokelessk! So what im hearing you say is that it's likely caused by a high velocity at a shorter distance of impact? All my other shots with this smokeless muzzleloader have been more at the 100 yard mark and they all performed as expected. This was indeed the first one at a shorter distance. I may have to begin doing as you do when I get a deer at 50 yards or under and go for head shots. Again thx for helping me learn and fine tune.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 15, 2022 5:19:50 GMT -5
When one shoots an animal at close range with these guns don't be surprised if you don't get a pass thru or if you have a football sized hole in the off side, its just the nature of the beast regardless of bullet choice.
Many years ago I pulled a sneak on a buck and ended up shooting him at 20 yds when he stood up from his bed, a .270 win with a 130 grn game king @ 2750 mv. the deer collapsed but no pass thru, I had shrapnel in almost every body part of that buck except the hind quarters, I had to throw most of it away because of bullet fragments.
close impacts with a large diameter projectile at the speeds we shoot makes a mess, the buck I killed last Saturday is a good example, he went down immediately, got up and ran 30 yds before crashing, even with a hole the size of a softball. the shot was about 60 yds.
I have a picture of a deer killed last Saturday in KY with the same load I shoot, I don"t know the details but it's missing most of the ribcage on the off side with almost nothing left on the inside, not anything I care to post a picture of for sure.
We need not be surprised when we see this happen, we are shooting a relatively light animal with one of the most powerful large caliber guns that can be carried, when you think about the energy these guns carry to the target vs most big magnums, 300 win,.300 Weatherby, .338 L etc, there is no comparison.
A few years back I got to hunt in the same camp with Harold Knight, he was shooting a 700 ML conversion with a 275 Accumax @ 2800, a gun I had done a few years earlier. He told all of us this, "I have never shot a deer with a gun that has the terminal effect of this thing", and this with what we would deem a mild load for a .45 cal., the man has killed more stuff than I will ever think about. when I told him what load I was shooting he just smiled and shook his head. bottom line is we are shooting bambi with an elephant gun.
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Post by smokelessk on Dec 15, 2022 6:36:35 GMT -5
[/quote]Thx for the detailed reply Smokelessk!
So what im hearing you say is that it's likely caused by a high velocity at a shorter distance of impact? All my other shots with this smokeless muzzleloader have been more at the 100 yard mark and they all performed as expected. This was indeed the first one at a shorter distance. I may have to begin doing as you do when I get a deer at 50 yards or under and go for head shots. Again thx for helping me learn and fine tune.[/quote]
Yes, close range is quite likely to result in no exit wound. Like Bill said, we are shooting Bambi with elephant guns. The terminal ballistics are like none other.
Think of it this way too. The load I run is a "standard" load for the heavier guns. 300 grain bullet with 73 grains of 4198. This makes for over 2,800 fps. Energy wise it is just over 5,000 foot pounds. Compare that to any center-fire cartridge.... Even the max load of a 458 win mag listed in my loading manual is dwarfed by that amount of energy.
So, an animal shot at close range with that load where there is no pass through. Well, that 5,000 foot pounds of energy must go somewhere. The target absorbs every bit of it. A pass through shot results in the target receiving a lot of the energy, but the bullet still carries some as it exists.
At close range you're launching a grenade. If a pass through is needed for tracking purposes you better be ready to track the animal with only one hole in it. Sure, many of them are bang flop shots, but not all. The only guarantee bang flop is a shot to the central nervous system. If I can't get the head I'll go high neck and place it there. A massive energy dump in the neck ends the show instantly too. Really, in those situations you want the bullet to expend all it's energy in the target, the higher the level of shock the better. Close range in the chest, good luck with a pass through. You'll probably lose quite a bit of meat from the shoulders. It doesn't matter to me losing a little bit of neck meat, and I've never eaten any meat off the skull.
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Post by sew on Dec 15, 2022 7:43:31 GMT -5
When one shoots an animal at close range with these guns don't be surprised if you don't get a pass thru of if you have a football sized hole in the off side, its just the nature of the beast regardless of bullet choice. Many years ago I pulled a sneak on a buck and ended up shooting him at 20 yds when he stood up from his bed, a .270 win with a 130 grn game king @ 2750 mv. the deer collapsed but no pass thru, I had shrapnel in almost every body part of that buck except the hind quarters, I had to throw most of it away because of bullet fragments. close impacts with a large diameter projectile at the speeds we shoot makes a mess, bottom line is we are shooting bambi with an elephant gun. After 22 seasons using various smokeless MLers, I found that most jacketed bullets I used were too frangible for the speed used. 200,250,300 SSTs and XTPs (except for the 300XTP MAG-penciled thru). Same with Pittmans (regular cores) and Furys when shot too fast. Not the bullets’ faults. The 275 40 cal AM performed much better at higher speeds. I suspect the 300 and 325s (&303/328) would do better yet. Shooting bullets out of their appropriate speeds results in less than optimal performance. In 2002, when I went to a PN 40 and 2003 to PN 45s also, I started using 175 and 195 Knight Red Hots (Barnes ) , later 195 Barnes, 165 & 240 annealed CEBs, knurled 4005 Pittman 253 Hammers, and now, finally, annealed, full sized 253 Pittman Hammers (3 deer this year - the ultralight @ 2730). I have never lost a deer shot with a monolithic bullet. My bullet weights are comparatively low in comparison to many other ML shooters as are my velocities. = or < 1/2 MOA thru 300 yards (Hammers), always passthrus, no great carnage, just a deer DRT or within 10-20 yards.
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Post by ballistic on Dec 15, 2022 11:15:34 GMT -5
bergerbullets.com/history-of-the-match-grade-berger-hunting-vld/Please refer to this link for an interesting read on “History of the Match Grade Berger Hunting VLD” I am going to copy and paste a section that deals with bullets blowing up at high velocities and what berger found and did to resolve the issue “On a few occasions, a competition shooter would be shooting a string, doing very well and unexpectedly a fired shot would come up as a miss. When a top level shooter is pouring bullets into the 10 ring and for no obvious reason the next shot is a miss, it is clear that something bad just happened and we needed to find out what so we could prevent it from happening again.” “As it turns out, the bullets were heating up to the point where the cores would actually melt. Once a bullet leaves the barrel with a melted core, it is certain that the molten lead will burst through the jacket under such high RPM. Obviously this was a problem that we needed to resolve, so we decided to test a thicker jacket. Making the jacket thicker did not make it strong enough to contain molten lead; but rather, it moved the lead away from the source of the heat. The source of the heat that can melt a core is the friction between the bearing surface and the rifling as the bullet travels through the barrel.” So how does the above possibly pertain to the damage that we see on these rounds at the speeds we are shooting them at. I experienced a similar rib cage removal to hillbills on a bull elk at close range. Looked like a terminator movie - extremely gruesome. Was with a .416 shooting 450 grain Hornady match hollow points at 2900 fps - but for all intents and purposes it’s normal damage was really close to the 325 pitmans that I shoot now - and I could see this happening on an elk at 20 yards. Aerodynamic heat affects could be another post - you should see what happens to hollow point rounds (disintegrate/ get bigger) the longer they are in flight. I won’t speak on Kyle’s behalf ( will never be worthy ) and I hope he doesn’t take offense. But how does a bullet maker make a perfect bullet ? Our smooth form bullets have to be made (jackets on the thin side- and cores also on the soft side) so they obturate into the riflings but are easy to push down the barrel and easy to size. The maker could make a round that works well for this purpose for high velocities but not for speeds below 2500 fps for example. And just the opposite for the slower rounds that wouldn’t shoot well at high velocity. If the bullet has a very thick jacket (like a swift scirocco for example) plan on pencil throughs - and jackets that thick would likely not allow a bullets obturation. When it comes to solid copper/monolithic - those rounds need to be full sized and many are annealing/softening to get better performance on animals. Solids can pencil through as well so it’s not the perfect round for everyone either but have their place for many and always seem to exit -a bonus for sure. Kyle makes hardcores to help hunters on the closer shots - but they still open up and leave some big holes. Hillbill has said the perfect bullet doesn’t exist - and I agree. It will come down to what each hunter prefers. I hunt in open canyons where longer shots are the norm. If I can put a football sized hole or bigger in an elk - they don’t live through it. If the shot is where the ribs end -the massive wound channel takes out the vitals. Is it going to be a mess inside -yes. Will I loose some meat- yes. Will the animal go 5 miles and die and not be recovered - likely not. But that’s my experience - and others would never like to use or do what I’m doing. Just my opinion on bullets and hunting. I hope the above article from Walt Berger possibly sheds some light on what could be happening on our muzzys that shoot rounds at high velocities. It’s a good read anyway. Does lead get softer/ more pliable with heat ? Something else to think about ?
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Post by spikes on Dec 15, 2022 11:29:04 GMT -5
When one shoots an animal at close range with these guns don't be surprised if you don't get a pass thru of if you have a football sized hole in the off side, its just the nature of the beast regardless of bullet choice. Many years ago I pulled a sneak on a buck and ended up shooting him at 20 yds when he stood up from his bed, a .270 win with a 130 grn game king @ 2750 mv. the deer collapsed but no pass thru, I had shrapnel in almost every body part of that buck except the hind quarters, I had to throw most of it away because of bullet fragments. close impacts with a large diameter projectile at the speeds we shoot makes a mess, bottom line is we are shooting bambi with an elephant gun. After 22 seasons using various smokeless MLers, I found that most jacketed bullets I used were too frangible for the speed used. 200,250,300 SSTs and XTPs (except for the 300XTP MAG-penciled thru). Same with Pittmans (regular cores) and Furys when shot too fast. Not the bullets’ faults. The 275 40 cal AM performed much better at higher speeds. I suspect the 300 and 325s (&303/328) would do better yet. Shooting bullets out of their appropriate speeds results in less than optimal performance. In 2002, when I went to a PN 40 and 2003 to PN 45s also, I started using 175 and 195 Knight Red Hots (Barnes ) , later 195 Barnes, 165 & 240 annealed CEBs, knurled 4005 Pittman 253 Hammers, and now, finally, annealed, full sized 253 Pittman Hammers (3 deer this year - the ultralight @ 2730). I have never lost a deer shot with a monolithic bullet. My bullet weights are comparatively low in comparison to many other ML shooters as are my velocities. = or < 1/2 MOA thru 300 yards (Hammers), always passthrus, no great carnage, just a deer DRT or within 10-20 yards. ive always wondered about those Knight red hots. Did they perform well for you? I actually just ordered some of the Lehigh controlled fracturing copper monos to try. I like that they dump a lot of energy with the petals but the solid copper base is supposed to still give you a passthrough. We will see. The likely issue will be can I get them to shoot as accurate as the Pittmans. Likely not.
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 15, 2022 13:25:21 GMT -5
SPIKES ..... Theres a guy on Modern Muzzleloader that goes by Sabotloader that shoots those Leihighs and is somehow connected to them and Knight . . He has used some Pretty Innovative Techniques to get them.sealimg and shooting out of his Knights with Alot less pressure than we have to work with (T7) . Worth a look . Even the use of a tubing cutter on those monos !!! The mans a smart cookie !!! I have a bunch of them he sent me to try , Good guy . You May find something there of benefit id bet . A winks as good as a nod on that tip ....
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 15, 2022 13:38:17 GMT -5
This isnt deer or elk hunting bullet related BUT ..... X-treme bullets sells some extremely inexpensive foulers and varmint bullets . 500 for around $70 . Plated swedged lead . 230 to 250ish for 45s and 220s for 40s . PERFECT for those 2 things . IMO of course for the money . Or just for cheap trigger time to save on powder and expensive bullets for hunting . Worth a look . I like them for all 3 reasons
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Post by hillbill on Dec 15, 2022 19:35:33 GMT -5
In .45 cal I have had not so great success trying to get mono bullets to shoot, a full formed .458 mono would likely do well, smooth formed .400-.402 bullets? not saying it don't happen but that's one of the main reasons most shoot cup and core bullets in the .45s, they just shoot well and it's easy to find a workable load.
A mono in .45 would have to be a big LOONG sucker to have any kind of BC, likely the reason you don't see many makers try to produce them, those that are made are designed for smokers and have a not so great BC. Hard to beat a cup and core bullet for accuracy and BC in our .45s.
.40s are lucky in the respect that good BC monos that are accurate do exist but for the most part must be full formed, something many of you gents just don't care to venture into, I get it, another realm to learn and get right but it is doable.
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Post by Kyle on Dec 15, 2022 20:16:48 GMT -5
Copper is only about 76-77% as dense as Lead, depending on the grade of copper. Weight, nose shape, nose length, bearing surface and base shape all come into play making up a bullets form factor and BC. If you have a copper bullet machined to the exact specs as an existing swaged cup and core bullet, the cup and core bullet will have a much better BC than its copper cousin.
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Post by spikes on Dec 15, 2022 21:13:18 GMT -5
SPIKES ..... Theres a guy on Modern Muzzleloader that goes by Sabotloader that shoots those Leihighs and is somehow connected to them and Knight . . He has used some Pretty Innovative Techniques to get them.sealimg and shooting out of his Knights with Alot less pressure than we have to work with (T7) . Worth a look . Even the use of a tubing cutter on those monos !!! The mans a smart cookie !!! I have a bunch of them he sent me to try , Good guy . You May find something there of benefit id bet . A winks as good as a nod on that tip .... Thx sir I will go check it out. Maybe a dumb question, but does a bullet still obturate when being shot out of a sabot? Or is the sabot obturating for the smaller caliber size bullet at that point?
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Post by buckstuds on Dec 16, 2022 9:16:39 GMT -5
I think I have found a good choice for us black/blued brothers. I am shooting a 250 thompson center shockwave bonded with blue tip. I cut one in half and you can not get the lead away from the copper jacket. By the way, 60 grains of h4198 with a wool wad and HIS. This conbo has a 45 cal hole in and a one inch hole out. All deer have been shot at 35 to 140 yds. For us black/blued brothers, I run the bullet thru a lee .450 die twice. Nice two hand pressure every time. I think this combo works well because of bullet and speed combo.
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Post by sew on Dec 16, 2022 10:02:47 GMT -5
The bonded SW has much greater integrity than the SST.
The fixed, Lee sizing dies can be a low cost alternative to adjustable sizing dies. A bonded SW (250g) can be a good bullet choice for sabotless, especially =/< 2,600’/sec and out to 150-200 yards.
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Post by Sideshow on Dec 17, 2022 13:28:06 GMT -5
SPIKES ..... Theres a guy on Modern Muzzleloader that goes by Sabotloader that shoots those Leihighs and is somehow connected to them and Knight . . He has used some Pretty Innovative Techniques to get them.sealimg and shooting out of his Knights with Alot less pressure than we have to work with (T7) . Worth a look . Even the use of a tubing cutter on those monos !!! The mans a smart cookie !!! I have a bunch of them he sent me to try , Good guy . You May find something there of benefit id bet . A winks as good as a nod on that tip .... Thx sir I will go check it out. Maybe a dumb question, but does a bullet still obturate when being shot out of a sabot? Or is the sabot obturating for the smaller caliber size bullet at that point? Others may do this differently than i do but.....i measure my bore with a Starret small hole gauges and i measure my sabot with a micrometer . I shoot for .003 to .004 thousandths interferance loaded sabot larger than bore . This has been very effective for me for accuracy . If too loose i knurl up to get those figures . If too tight i try other sabots or size the bullets down usually . A thinner flexible petal sabot is generally more accurate especially when fit as i do . I always use at least a light knurl to grip the sabot and impart spin to the bullet . I believe it also weakens the jacket a bit making obturation easier in the sabot . On jacketed the amount of knurl matters vs obturation . I would think some bullets do obturate more in sabots being shot better than others ?? How to prove it though ?? Softer bullets do tend for me to be more accurate however I think thats because of more obturation . How much all of this would benefit/change a 195gr or heavier Annealed Copper Mono or its best fittment being saboted i dont honestly know ?? Experiment is all i can say ?? Much of any progress begins that way or thru pursueing a idea ?? When the amount of sabot interference fit matches bullet obturation and the powder and amount of it youll know . Knurling Can Help Tune This w/Jacketed . Its good off season prep for the main event and Very Satisfying when you discover/figure out a combination !!! This jacketed/lead core knurling seems to effect on game preformance as well createing a quicker expanding bullet of sorts along with twist rate of the barrel provideing rpm of spin to start expansion sooner . I find i usually do have to slow the softer bullets down a bit more to avoid explosivness on/in on game . Harder jacketed bullets will open up on game sooner too knurled . A mono isnt effected at all on game being knurled IMO . This thinking useing knurl as a expansion modifying tool also applies to bullet to bore on game . No doubt obturation too proved enhanced . From what ive found the effect on bc is said to be minimal . Hope this helps .
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Post by sew on Dec 18, 2022 9:30:44 GMT -5
Obturation within sabots:
I am a comparatively short range hunter (0-200 yards, and now, out to 300/350). And often using lighter 45s, I used sabots a lot. Softer bullets obturate more? Yes. After mixed performance with 200g SSTs (and 250&300SSTs& 250 XTPs in 10ML2s) , I went to 175/195 Bs and 165/240 CEBs. The Barnes obturated better (in sabots) than the CEBs until I annealed the CEBs. The 240s became my favorite. Then I just started annealing the Barnes also, though likely with little benefit.
At my comparatively low velocities (2400-2750), I’ve found that the terminal performance of the all copper bullets was better annealed.
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Post by spikes on Dec 18, 2022 18:40:59 GMT -5
Thx sir I will go check it out. Maybe a dumb question, but does a bullet still obturate when being shot out of a sabot? Or is the sabot obturating for the smaller caliber size bullet at that point? Others may do this differently than i do but.....i measure my bore with a Starret small hole gauges and i measure my sabot with a micrometer . I shoot for .003 to .004 thousandths interferance loaded sabot larger than bore . This has been very effective for me for accuracy . If too loose i knurl up to get those figures . If too tight i try other sabots or size the bullets down usually . A thinner flexible petal sabot is generally more accurate especially when fit as i do . I always use at least a light knurl to grip the sabot and impart spin to the bullet . I believe it also weakens the jacket a bit making obturation easier in the sabot . On jacketed the amount of knurl matters vs obturation . I would think some bullets do obturate more in sabots being shot better than others ?? How to prove it though ?? Softer bullets do tend for me to be more accurate however I think thats because of more obturation . How much all of this would benefit/change a 195gr or heavier Annealed Copper Mono or its best fittment being saboted i dont honestly know ?? Experiment is all i can say ?? Much of any progress begins that way or thru pursueing a idea ?? When the amount of sabot interference fit matches bullet obturation and the powder and amount of it youll know . Knurling Can Help Tune This w/Jacketed . Its good off season prep for the main event and Very Satisfying when you discover/figure out a combination !!! This jacketed/lead core knurling seems to effect on game preformance as well createing a quicker expanding bullet of sorts along with twist rate of the barrel provideing rpm of spin to start expansion sooner . I find i usually do have to slow the softer bullets down a bit more for explosivness on/in on game . Harder jacketed bullets will open up on game sooner too knurled . A mono isnt effected at all on game being knurled IMO . This thinking useing knurl as a expansion modifying tool also applies to bullet to bore on game . No doubt obturation too proved enhanced . From what ive found the effect on bc is said to be minimal . Hope this helps . Yes super helpful thx sir! I will be out there experimenting as soon as deer season is over for sure! That's how I deal with the sadness of the end of the deer season.
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Post by spikes on Dec 18, 2022 18:43:29 GMT -5
Obturation within sabots: I am a comparatively short range hunter (0-200 yards, and now, out to 300/350). And often using lighter 45s, I used sabots a lot. Softer bullets obturate more? Yes. After mixed performance with 200g SSTs (and 250&300SSTs& 250 XTPs in 10ML2s) , I went to 175/195 Bs and 165/240 CEBs. The Barnes obturated better (in sabots) than the CEBs until I annealed the CEBs. The 240s became my favorite. Then I just started annealing the Barnes also, though likely with little benefit. At my comparatively low velocities (2400-2750), I’ve found that the terminal performance of the all copper bullets was better annealed. very helpful. ill prob start with some barnes and test accuracy. have a feeling ill be starting some annealing for the first time as well this off season.
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