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Post by spikes on Dec 4, 2022 23:23:50 GMT -5
Ive posted 2 kills in the "meat pole thread" with pics of exits etc but I have now actually shot 4 deer this season with the 228 grain hardcores in 40 cal using harvester smooth sabots. Im shooting these at about 2500 fps. All 4 deer taken between 70-100 yards. 2 were quartering to shoulder shots that penetrated the front shoulders and made huge 3 inch exits in the back of the ribs. The other 2 were quartering away that entered ribs and exited opposite shoulders destroying those shoulders as well. All 4 shots have been complete pass throughs and massive blood trails. Im plain blown away with the performance of these bullets.
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Post by thumbhole on Dec 5, 2022 5:28:49 GMT -5
Ive posted 2 kills in the "meat pole thread" with pics of exits etc but I have now actually shot 4 deer this season with the 228 grain hardcores in 40 cal using harvester smooth sabots. Im shooting these at about 2500 fps. All 4 deer taken between 70-100 yards. 2 were quartering to shoulder shots that penetrated the front shoulders and made huge 3 inch exits in the back of the ribs. The other 2 were quartering away that entered ribs and exited opposite shoulders destroying those shoulders as well. All 4 shots have been complete pass throughs and massive blood trails. Im plain blown away with the performance of these bullets. Wow! That's funny, I shot a decent buck last week with the Pittman 228 gr. bullet at 3165 fps. He was about 90-100 yds and hit him broad side in the middle of the ribs. It had a 1" entrance hole and the bullet did not exit. He only ran about 40 yds. with no blood trail but, that bullet turned his insides to soup. After this season I thought I would try one of the Fury bullets or the 240 gr. from Cutting Edge Bullets.
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Post by sew on Dec 5, 2022 7:33:55 GMT -5
Ive posted 2 kills in the "meat pole thread" with pics of exits etc but I have now actually shot 4 deer this season with the 228 grain hardcores in 40 cal using harvester smooth sabots. Im shooting these at about 2500 fps. All 4 deer taken between 70-100 yards. 2 were quartering to shoulder shots that penetrated the front shoulders and made huge 3 inch exits in the back of the ribs. The other 2 were quartering away that entered ribs and exited opposite shoulders destroying those shoulders as well. All 4 shots have been complete pass throughs and massive blood trails. Im plain blown away with the performance of these bullets. Wow! That's funny, I shot a decent buck last week with the Pittman 228 gr. bullet at 3165 fps. He was about 90-100 yds and hit him broad side in the middle of the ribs. It had a 1" entrance hole and the bullet did not exit. He only ran about 40 yds. with no blood trail but, that bullet turned his insides to soup. After this season I thought I would try one of the Fury bullets or the 240 gr. from Cutting Edge Bullets. A jacketed bullet has it’s strengths and limitations. We shouldn’t expect it to do the impossible. The faster we shoot them and the faster the twist, the more frangible they’ll be. The hardcores are harder to obturate (likely only a factor with lighter loads-like I normally shoot) but should penetrate better. The first deer I shot with an AcuMax was a 40 cal ,225 @2,950, 100 yards, large doe, classic boiler room, nocked off her feet, got up, ran 100 yards, not a drop of blood. She asorbed a tremendous amount of energy. The insides were mush - from the heart thru the intestines, couldn’t find a hint of the diaphragm. I asked the bullet to do what it was not designed to do. The 228 did some better but still too fast and fast twist (like most 40s are). The 278 Hardcore AM @ 2870 (lot more sectional density) did much better and exited with a rib cage shot. Full sizing the hard cores helped obturation and accuracy. For light to moderate pressure loads, full sizing helps accuracy , period. I don’t shoot as fast or as heavy of bullets as many on this board. However, my QL calculated pressures range from 48-53K. I doubt they are really that high and the pressure just stays at a high level longer than in a CF. The 252/253 and 272/273 Pittman Hammers, in 4085, annealed and fullsized , are at 1/3 MOA in my heavy 40 thru 300 yards (6x24 scope) and 1/2 MOA in my ultralite (2x8) scope, thru 300 yards. That’s varmint level hunting accuracy with perfect terminal performance - passthrus and DRT or <10 yards travel with perfect blood trail.
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Post by spikes on Dec 5, 2022 9:09:21 GMT -5
Ive posted 2 kills in the "meat pole thread" with pics of exits etc but I have now actually shot 4 deer this season with the 228 grain hardcores in 40 cal using harvester smooth sabots. Im shooting these at about 2500 fps. All 4 deer taken between 70-100 yards. 2 were quartering to shoulder shots that penetrated the front shoulders and made huge 3 inch exits in the back of the ribs. The other 2 were quartering away that entered ribs and exited opposite shoulders destroying those shoulders as well. All 4 shots have been complete pass throughs and massive blood trails. Im plain blown away with the performance of these bullets. Wow! That's funny, I shot a decent buck last week with the Pittman 228 gr. bullet at 3165 fps. He was about 90-100 yds and hit him broad side in the middle of the ribs. It had a 1" entrance hole and the bullet did not exit. He only ran about 40 yds. with no blood trail but, that bullet turned his insides to soup. After this season I thought I would try one of the Fury bullets or the 240 gr. from Cutting Edge Bullets. Would it be the velocity difference? Yours are going almost 700 fps faster. Not sure.
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Post by spikes on Dec 5, 2022 9:10:49 GMT -5
Wow! That's funny, I shot a decent buck last week with the Pittman 228 gr. bullet at 3165 fps. He was about 90-100 yds and hit him broad side in the middle of the ribs. It had a 1" entrance hole and the bullet did not exit. He only ran about 40 yds. with no blood trail but, that bullet turned his insides to soup. After this season I thought I would try one of the Fury bullets or the 240 gr. from Cutting Edge Bullets. A jacketed bullet has it’s strengths and limitations. We shouldn’t expect it to do the impossible. The faster we shoot them and the faster the twist, the more frangible they’ll be. The hardcores are harder to obturate (likely only a factor with lighter loads-like I normally shoot) but should penetrate better. The first deer I shot with an AcuMax was a 40 cal ,225 @2,950, 100 yards, large doe, classic boiler room, nocked off her feet, got up, ran 100 yards, not a drop of blood. She asorbed a tremendous amount of energy. The insides were mush - from the heart thru the intestines, couldn’t find a hint of the diaphragm. I asked the bullet to do what it was not designed to do. The 228 did some better but still too fast and fast twist (like most 40s are). The 278 Hardcore AM @ 2870 (lot more sectional density) did much better and exited with a rib cage shot. Full sizing the hard cores helped obturation and accuracy. For light to moderate pressure loads, full sizing helps accuracy , period. I don’t shoot as fast or as heavy of bullets as many on this board. However, my QL calculated pressures range from 48-53K. I doubt they are really that high and the pressure just stays at a high level longer than in a CF. The 252/253 and 272/273 Pittman Hammers, in 4085, annealed and fullsized , are at 1/3 MOA in my heavy 40 thru 300 yards (6x24 scope) and 1/2 MOA in my ultralite (2x8) scope, thru 300 yards. That’s varmint level hunting accuracy with perfect terminal performance - passthrus and DRT or <10 yards travel with perfect blood trail. I think im gonna try some of the Pittman hammers next year too
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Post by sew on Dec 5, 2022 15:42:42 GMT -5
FWIW, I’m shooting 253 (4085) with 62g H322/DI annealed, full sized, no wad (wads didn’t help). That’s a calculated 50K psi. While, I’m getting 1 1/2” 300 yard groups , I think the groups would be tighter with a higher power than an 8x scope, a fold-up plastic table, and no wind flags.
I’m aware that not everyone anneals the Hammers nor Barnes, but to minimize the stress on the sizing die and to enhance quick obturation, I do. Smooth sizing Barnes and 4005 Hammers was a lot easier than full sizing 4085s.
Dennis, we agree, slightly undersizing the 4005s and knurling up and using a wad gave me the best accuracy out of my Sav/40 PN.
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ronc
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by ronc on Dec 5, 2022 16:03:56 GMT -5
Kyle explained the limitations of the 40 cal 225-228 gr bullets to me. I think I remember him saying he thought the upper terminal limits of the 225 gr to be around 2400 fps and the 228 gr to be around 2600 fps. I think he said the 228 gr should expand down to well below 2000 fps. At 2800 fps muzzle velocity the 228HC has performed very well for me and it is all I use. At that speed it should perform well out to 400 yds or so but haven't confirmed it. A high lung shot has almost always been DRT, breaking the back from shock. I think 2800 may be close to max on the 228 gr for reliable exit wounds and with much higher velocities it becomes a good varmint bullet.
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Post by sew on Dec 6, 2022 7:55:19 GMT -5
Ron, I agree totally. Jacketed bullets have their limits. Many of us have experienced the rather low velocity limits of the 200 and 250 SSTs. And the higher limits of the regular and hard core jacketed Pittman bullets.
In 40s with 225/228, 250/, 275/278, a consideration could be to move up the weight ladder. The combination of increased BC along with increasing sectional density allowing for greater penetration gives viable options. A 278g going 2,900 is is certainly preferable and more viable than a 228 going 3,100.
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Post by spikes on Dec 6, 2022 10:43:49 GMT -5
Are the Pittman hardcores considered "bonded" or simply just the harder alloy added in the core?
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Post by hillbill on Dec 6, 2022 10:47:21 GMT -5
They are a much harder alloy
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Post by ballistic on Dec 6, 2022 23:26:27 GMT -5
We could start a new thread -and call it the quest for the perfect bullet. My idea would be to have the rear half of a round formed like a swift scirocco or a Nosler partition. The front half would have a hollow point or an aluminum tip to create expansion and filled with a softer lead and a .020-.025 jacket. (Kinda sounds like the front half of a Pittman) The rounds would all need to be heavy for caliber to increase the sectional density (higher SD is better for penetration)…. This doesn’t really relate to the quartering shot with a lower weight bullet that has lower sectional density- but the hardcores would surely help. I’m pretty sure a heavy weight for caliber Pittman aeromax will drop almost anything in North America and most of Africa . Have shot several elk with the heavier rounds and nothing has lived -even with a poor placed shot on 1 that moved when the trigger broke. Impact velocities on elk have ranged from 2800 fps up close down to 1600 fps on some really long shots and the low velocity shot at 1600 fps still expanded really well. Are his aeromax overkill and is overkill a good thing ? My experience is a big yes. I’d rather loose a little meat with overkill (huge wound channels) than loose an animal with a round that drills a hole through without expanding. My advice would be to increase the weight of the bullet - even if it’s going slower to keep the recoil in check. Kyles aeromax bullets (heavy) are the best performing bullets that I have ever used on elk. And better than anything I’ve used centerfire with big guns up to .338 shooting 300 grain high Bc bullets.
I believe Kyle’s bullets (maybe not the perfect bullet for every situation) are amazing. And rifle shooters are also looking for the perfect bullet - and it doesn’t exist either- just more options. Go heavy and take the quartering to shot with confidence.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 7, 2022 14:46:04 GMT -5
If I get time tonight I will do just that. I think there could be much learned by doing so especially for the newer members or the guys wanting to jump in and test the waters.
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Post by joelmoney on Dec 8, 2022 0:51:39 GMT -5
I shoot 325 Aeromax’s in my break action 45 and my 40 cal bolt gun. I wait for quartering shots. I prefer quartering away. Never has my bullet not come out. Very little meat damage and DRT if I do my part.
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Post by turkey1 on Dec 8, 2022 19:10:09 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input.
After seeing the pros and cons of several bullets I ordered some 45 cal 250 grain fury star tip 2p’s and 45 cal 250 grain Barnes Tez’s. I shot these today and both got 1” groups. The Barnes are fairly loose and I don’t trust them to say seated when carrying (will try knurling in the off season) so I’m going to try hunting our late season with the fury’s. Again thanks for all the discussion. Also l I’m not downing the accumax or saying they failed, I think I just mis understood there intended purpose. And they are very accurate
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Post by runamuck on Dec 23, 2022 18:20:39 GMT -5
The only bones I want to hit are ribs. Never lost one, never shot twice so far and have shot many deer. With anything from .223 to 45-70 a double lung shot always takes them down with little to no meat lost. I like an exit hole nowadays so my aging eyes have an easier time tracking.
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Post by mike on Dec 23, 2022 19:59:23 GMT -5
Yep, you are correct sir, broadside double lung never fails and doesn't do any damage to the meat.
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Post by sew on Dec 24, 2022 7:40:54 GMT -5
Thanks for all the input. After seeing the pros and cons of several bullets I ordered some 45 cal 250 grain fury star tip 2p’s and 45 cal 250 grain Barnes Tez’s. I shot these today and both got 1” groups. The Barnes are fairly loose and I don’t trust them to say seated when carrying (will try knurling in the off season) so I’m going to try hunting our late season with the fury’s. Again thanks for all the discussion. Also l I’m not downing the accumax or saying they failed, I think I just mis understood there intended purpose. And they are very accurate Knurling is a very easy way to tighten a bullet’s fit. Simplest is to role between 2#8 bastard files. 5 seconds a bullet. Should work great for the TEZs. TEZs. If a .400” 225g TEZ existed, then shot saboted(45) or knurled or sized (and maybe knurled), it would be a great bullet for many.
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Post by flattopusa on Dec 24, 2022 10:44:58 GMT -5
I have always used cast bullets for hunting (I cast my own so I can produce the correct hardness and malleability for the task/velocity, etc) with the exception of my varmint rifles in which I use jacketed bullets.
Before the invention of the jacketed bullet the cast lead bullet (for light to medium game) and the cast lead bullet hardened with pewter (for large and large dangerous game) was used exclusively. John Taylor the legendary African hunter (and sometimes poacher) stated that the cast bullet was "the most perfect bullet ever developed". With 60 years of hunting under my belt, testing and hunting all sorts of bullets, I have come to the conclusion that John Taylor, in a way, was correct. The terminal performance of the cast bullet never changes regardless of conditions. The cast bullet goes in one side and out the other creating massive blood loss in short order (two holes bleed better than one), and delivers a great deal of terminal impact energy to the target. The cast bullet will penetrate heavy bone with the correct alloy for the task, or mushroom just as well as a jacketed bullet, again with the correct alloy. If the alloy hardness and malleability are correct there is very little loss of retained weight if any.
The reason the jacketed bullet gained favor was that it reduced bullet fouling in the bore and allowed multiple shots to be fired without having to clean the bore.....bullet fouling reduced accuracy. Cast bullet "fit to bore" substantially reduces that issue. The paper patched bullet properly fit to the bore eliminated that issue, and black powder fouling.....powder fouling became the only concern.
....and here we are today! Modern smokeless muzzle loaders using modern smokeless powder have eliminated the powder fouling issue to a great degree and the jacketed bullets and bullet fit to bore (which is critical to SML accuracy and performance) have made successive accurate shots a reality.
I shot BP for a few seasons before I had Hank build a SML for me. My goal was to shoot cast bullets in my new SML and after working with and Fackler Box testing my new SML I found that paper patched cast bullets would perform faultlessly in the field. Accuracy was on par with conventional cartridge rifles...a shot could be taken at any angle, through hard or soft mater...there was no leading of the bore.....and I didnt have to clean the darn thing every shot or two.
Now, I dont think that anybody will jump on my bandwagon and start shooting paper patched cast bullets, but regardless of what type of bullet you shoot its imperative that you know the construction of that bullet (I know how my bullets are constructed and will perform because I make and test them myself). If you expect to hit heavy bone a thick skinned bonded jacketed bullet will serve you well, and if you can hold off for the side shot a thin skinned bullet will serve that purpose.
"The bullet does the work"! Use the bullet that will get the work done.
"Dont use a gun that will get the job done when everything goes right...use a gun that will get the job done when everything goes wrong". Bob Hagel. The same can be said about the bullet.
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Post by thumbhole on Dec 24, 2022 12:42:34 GMT -5
Ive posted 2 kills in the "meat pole thread" with pics of exits etc but I have now actually shot 4 deer this season with the 228 grain hardcores in 40 cal using harvester smooth sabots. Im shooting these at about 2500 fps. All 4 deer taken between 70-100 yards. 2 were quartering to shoulder shots that penetrated the front shoulders and made huge 3 inch exits in the back of the ribs. The other 2 were quartering away that entered ribs and exited opposite shoulders destroying those shoulders as well. All 4 shots have been complete pass throughs and massive blood trails. Im plain blown away with the performance of these bullets. Wow! That's funny, I shot a decent buck last week with the Pittman 228 gr. bullet at 3165 fps. He was about 90-100 yds and hit him broad side in the middle of the ribs. It had a 1" entrance hole and the bullet did not exit. He only ran about 40 yds. with no blood trail but, that bullet turned his insides to soup. After this season I thought I would try one of the Fury bullets or the 240 gr. from Cutting Edge Bullets. I purchased a pack of Fury .401 OT 240 gr. bullets and got my gun dialed in. I dropped 3 gr. of powder and wound up with 5 shots in .8" group @ 100 yds. averaging 3045 fps. Our muzzleloader season ends 12/31/22 I hope to get a chance to see if this bullet will give me a pass through.
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klook
Junior Member
Posts: 85
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Post by klook on Dec 25, 2022 10:04:05 GMT -5
And as has been stated repeatedly above, a pass thru will be dictated by the range and the velocity of that bullet and what it hits. I stopped loading my CF rifles(handloads) decades ago in favor of light recoil, accurate out to my intended range, and let the bullet do its job by placing it correctly. Having a bullet malfunction is a possibility, but if placed correctly the damage will likely still kill the intended target. It is far less likely within the boundaries of the bullets intended velocity at impact. Kyle has made this clear by making 2 different bullets in the same weight category. Pretty soon someone is going to wait for the animal to appear before selecting the projectile for the job. This gets back to the decades old argument about 1 hole or 2. Would it have made a difference what Jeff shot those 2 small does with at half a mile? Balistic knows he wants performance at long range on Elk and choses his projectile carefully and with great experience. But I bet if he had one inside 100 yards the performance might be different. In fact I bet he would not go for a shot that would hit a shoulder at 100 yards. Might be wrong about that, but high velocity with a bullet built to perform at low long range velocities is a recipe for disaster. Particularly on heavy bone.
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