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Post by Kyle on Nov 11, 2022 19:18:13 GMT -5
Sometimes after speaking with customers, especially after they harvest a deer at close range (inside of 200 yards), I get the impression that they really don't realize how powerful these guns really are. Below I have made a list of center fire rifle cartridges that most have at least heard of, most guys have probably shot at least one from the list. Center fire cartridge velocities were obtained from Federal Premium Ammunition website. Muzzleloader velocities listed below were chosen at random to represent known loads shot from shooters on this board. I hope this brings things into perspective more for the less seasoned smokeless muzzleloader and experienced shooter alike.
Looks like the AccuMax .452" 275 @ 2600 is dwarfing the energy of a .300 Win Mag 180 Grain @ 2960. Food for thought when you are making shots on game this fall. I wish everyone a safe and enjoyable hunting season!
Cartridge Grain MV Energy Muzzle
.50 BMG / A. Eagle 660 2490 9088
.500 Nitro / Federal 570 2100 5582
.458 Win Mag / Federal 500 1950 4222
.375 H&H / Federal 300 2440 3966
.375 H&H / Federal 270 2690 4339
.338 Lapua / Federal 300 2650 4679
.300 Win / Federal 150 3200 3411
.300 Win / Federal 180 2960 3502
7mm Rem / Federal 150 3050 3099
7mm Rem / Federal 175 2860 3179
.30-06 / Federal 165 2790 2852
.30-06 / Federal 180 2700 2914
.270 Win / Federal 130 3050 2685
.270 Win / Federal 150 2830 2668
.243 Win / Federal 100 2960 1945
.243 Win / Federal 95 2980 1873
.452” Aeromax 353 3800 11321
.452” Aeromax 350 2800 6094
.452” Aeromax 325 3100 6936
.452” Aeromax 325 2750 5458
.452” Aeromax 300 3100 6403
.452” Aeromax 300 2800 5223
.452” Aeromax 300 2550 4332
.452” AccuMax 275 3000 5496
.452” AccuMax 275 2600 4128
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Post by yoderjac on Nov 11, 2022 19:23:49 GMT -5
Cool comparison. I'm shooting a 275 grain .452 Aeromax at 2567 fps from an Hankins Encore build. I also have a .300 win max barrel for another encore and I shoot 180 grain SST. The damage to the deer is very similar between the two.
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Post by hillbill on Nov 11, 2022 20:02:51 GMT -5
After shooting the doe antelope last year with the big .40 and a 350 I looked up the MZ energy at 900 yds, 3,775 ft lbs, kind of incredible for a front stuffer.
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Post by 03mossy on Nov 11, 2022 22:46:00 GMT -5
Very cool. Thanks for putting this chart together.
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Post by Deputy819 on Nov 12, 2022 4:47:56 GMT -5
Thanks for posting, Kyle! This kind of comparison really puts some perspective on things. Man, I LOVE these rifles. 👍
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Post by smokelessk on Nov 12, 2022 5:32:56 GMT -5
Definitely some useful information! I've made the same comparison using my Sierra loading manual in the past. Numbers are something I find interesting. Realistically, we are pursuing ~140 pound game animals with rifles that supersede many or most dangerous game/elephant guns. Below is the 458 data from my manual, 300 grain bullet. Note the powder listed on line number 3, and the last powder on the list. Compare max load of each to what we're shooting with the identical weight bullet. Makes the 458 seem pretty anemic doesn't it? I know 73 grains in my heavy gun is over 2,800fps and perfectly safe. Guys shooting 4895 are easily over 3K fps with around 30 grains more powder than the max 4895 load. I don't think this year I will be running my Encore SML, but I definitely need to order some of Kyle's HC's for it before I do. As most of my shots are going to be closer than 100 yards.
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Post by sew on Nov 12, 2022 8:27:12 GMT -5
Great argument for a 40!
Big 40 - 2870, 275 AM Little - 2730, 253 PH
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 12, 2022 19:46:32 GMT -5
Great argument for a 40! Big 40 - 2870, 275 AM Little - 2730, 253 PH The .40 with 325’s fast is pretty impressive. 😀😀
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Post by sew on Nov 12, 2022 20:04:33 GMT -5
On both ends!
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Post by buckeye68 on Nov 12, 2022 20:53:27 GMT -5
Great argument for a 40! Big 40 - 2870, 275 AM Little - 2730, 253 PH [br The .40 with 325’s fast is pretty impressive. 😀😀 I guess I’m missing something here. A 275 grain bullet going X amount is no different in a 40 cal than a 45 cal muzzleloader.
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Post by buckeye68 on Nov 12, 2022 20:53:40 GMT -5
Great argument for a 40! Big 40 - 2870, 275 AM Little - 2730, 253 PH [br The .40 with 325’s fast is pretty impressive. 😀😀 I guess I’m missing something here. A 275 grain bullet is a 275 bullet. Doesn’t size matter???
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 12, 2022 21:23:34 GMT -5
[br The .40 with 325’s fast is pretty impressive. 😀😀 I guess I’m missing something here. A 275 grain bullet is a 275 bullet. Doesn’t size matter??? Sew is shooting lighter bullets at slower velocities to save meat and shoulder. He still hunts and dose not have the time I do in a shooting house to get my deer lined up for perfect shot. The diameter dose not matter. What matters is velocity that 275 is going when it makes contact.
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Post by sew on Nov 12, 2022 21:31:55 GMT -5
[br The .40 with 325’s fast is pretty impressive. 😀😀 I guess I’m missing something here. A 275 grain bullet is a 275 bullet. Doesn’t size matter??? It has to do with sectional density. This results in a higher ballistic coefficient of a smaller caliber bullet what is the same weight of a larger caliber bullet. A 275g AccuMax in 452 has an estimated G1 BC of 0.300 whereas a 275g 402 AccuMax has an estimated G1 BC of .430 (2800’/sec). That’s a huge difference & is a result of the significantly different sectional densities of 0.177 and 0.243. Take the same weight of something, make it narrower and longer and it will have a less aerodynamic drag. So, even the 225g 402 AccuMax with its higher BC of 0.340(2800) still has a much flatter trajectory and less crosswind effect of the heavier 452, 275g AccuMax with it’s BC of only 0.300. With both the 40 and 45 cal smokeless MLers having a lot of excess energy, this efficiency aspect is why I keep mentioning the advantages of the 40 cals. When a choice is available for either calibers usage, it seems to me that the 40 is the logical choice unless a person likes more recoil, to burn more powder and buy more scopes. I’ve been shooting a 40 for over 20 years and haven’t found a fly in the ointment yet. Kyle’s bullets, both the AccuMaxes and Hammers just opened the door wider. Next will come the 40 AeroMaxes. Hope this helps.
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 12, 2022 21:35:31 GMT -5
Steve I am thinking the higher sectional density might also help lessen expansion. I could be wrong though.
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Post by buckeye68 on Nov 12, 2022 21:46:34 GMT -5
I guess I’m missing something here. A 275 grain bullet is a 275 bullet. Doesn’t size matter??? It has to do with sectional density. This results in a higher ballistic coefficient of a smaller caliber bullet what is the same weight of a larger caliber bullet. A 275g AccuMax in 452 has an estimated G1 BC of 0.300 whereas a 275g 402 AccuMax has an estimated G1 BC of .430 (2800’/sec). That’s a huge difference & is a result of the significantly different sectional densities of 0.177 and 0.243. Take the same weight of something, make it narrower and longer and it will have a less aerodynamic drag. So, even the 225g 402 AccuMax with its higher BC of 0.340(2800) still has a much flatter trajectory and less crosswind effect of the heavier 452, 275g AccuMax with it’s BC of only 0.300. With both the 40 and 45 cal smokeless MLers having a lot of excess energy, this efficiency aspect is why I keep mentioning the advantages of the 40 cals. When a choice is available for either calibers usage, it seems to me that the 40 is the logical choice unless a person likes more recoil, to burn more powder and buy more scopes. I’ve been shooting a 40 for over 20 years and haven’t found a fly in the ointment yet. Kyle’s bullets, both the AccuMaxes and Hammers just opened the door wider. Next will come the 40 AeroMaxes. Hope this helps. I thought Klye was talking about a bullet hit something. Just trying to stay on topic.
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Post by buckeye68 on Nov 12, 2022 21:46:47 GMT -5
I guess I’m missing something here. A 275 grain bullet is a 275 bullet. Doesn’t size matter??? It has to do with sectional density. This results in a higher ballistic coefficient of a smaller caliber bullet what is the same weight of a larger caliber bullet. A 275g AccuMax in 452 has an estimated G1 BC of 0.300 whereas a 275g 402 AccuMax has an estimated G1 BC of .430 (2800’/sec). That’s a huge difference & is a result of the significantly different sectional densities of 0.177 and 0.243. Take the same weight of something, make it narrower and longer and it will have a less aerodynamic drag. So, even the 225g 402 AccuMax with its higher BC of 0.340(2800) still has a much flatter trajectory and less crosswind effect of the heavier 452, 275g AccuMax with it’s BC of only 0.300. With both the 40 and 45 cal smokeless MLers having a lot of excess energy, this efficiency aspect is why I keep mentioning the advantages of the 40 cals. When a choice is available for either calibers usage, it seems to me that the 40 is the logical choice unless a person likes more recoil, to burn more powder and buy more scopes. I’ve been shooting a 40 for over 20 years and haven’t found a fly in the ointment yet. Kyle’s bullets, both the AccuMaxes and Hammers just opened the door wider. Next will come the 40 AeroMaxes. Hope this helps.
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Post by sew on Nov 12, 2022 21:55:06 GMT -5
Steve I am thinking the higher sectional density might also help lessen expansion. I could be wrong though. All else equal, that’s a given. That’s why larger caliber bullets, even with comparatively low energy, can be very deadly. Example: 45 ACP. In our case, that’s good, at least for deer hunting. The advantages seem to never end.🙂
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Post by sew on Nov 12, 2022 21:59:08 GMT -5
I probably misunderstood your statement/question. Sorry.
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Post by Kyle on Nov 12, 2022 23:43:02 GMT -5
[br The .40 with 325’s fast is pretty impressive. 😀😀 I guess I’m missing something here. A 275 grain bullet going X amount is no different in a 40 cal than a 45 cal muzzleloader. Kinetic Energy= M x (V2 ) / 450250 There would be no difference at point blank range. A .40 caliber AccuMax 275 grain bullet will retain more velocity, ( higher BC), than a .45 caliber AccuMax 275 grain bullet, (lower BC), at the same distance down range, given the same starting muzzle velocity. A bullet with a higher sectional density, (diameter to weight relationship), will penetrate more than a same weight bullet with a lower sectional density- given the same elements in bullet construction. A .40 AccuMax 275 has a higher sectional density than a .45 AccuMax 275. Sectional Density= (M/7000) / (bullet diameter x bullet diameter)
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Post by ballistic on Nov 13, 2022 10:20:58 GMT -5
This is what I have personally observed over the past 2 seasons of elk hunting. Pitman 325 aeromax .45 cal at 2700 fps with blackhorn 209. 2 cow elk at 650 yards=DRT. The bullets were both recovered with 2.5 expansion in the hide on the exit side. 1 of the elk was hit closer to the stomach = DRT. Fragmentation of both rounds resulted in both recovered bullets weighing around 150 grains so longer range shots would have also worked really well.
The same weight 325 in my .40 cal at 3050 fps Cow elk 550 yards bedded .Hit a tad high. Elk stood up and then rolled over. My initial thoughts were the .45 round was a better elk flipper. 3 elk later I’m not sure. None of the rounds on either caliber exited elk w the closest shot at 180 yards and the furthest would cause ethics debates. A 500 yard shot will lift an elk off its feet with either caliber but the .45 still puts a bigger hole going in. The .40 has a BC advantage that can’t be denied -but out to the 400 yard mark it really wont show up. That higher Bc number will keep the speed of the round higher which results in more energy on target. You can’t go wrong with either caliber as they both produce kinetic energy at the muzzle that can’t be denied-and Kyle’s list of the above rounds could be modified to show 300 and 500 yard energy and you would still see that his heavier aeromax rounds in both calibers would still be ahead on kinetic energy compared to everything on that list except the 50 bmg and (maybe) a 338 shooting a high Bc 300 grain bullet.
My observations from hunting above are just that and don’t carry any merit but thought I’d add them. As Kyle has already stated- MV x weight =energy. Kyle’s bullets are “The Hammers of Thor” on elk and I can’t say enough of how awesome they are ! And the guy that makes those bullets is an outstanding fellow as well !!!!!!
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