miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Sept 7, 2022 20:48:55 GMT -5
So I was annealing some CEB and Lehigh with the torch and my knees were not handling it well as I had the tray on the ground. I had to move and stumbled a bit and bumped the tray and a bunch of not annealed bullets fell into the water with the annealed ones. Normally you would be able to tell from color but I actually tried all these bullets on a hot plate first which didn't work but did discolor them. So unfortunately I am going to have to torch them all again.
The question is, will there be a difference between the double torched bullets and the single torched bullets? Its only the CEB's, the Lehigh I had all done.
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 8, 2022 7:48:51 GMT -5
Following
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Post by sockethead on Sept 8, 2022 14:51:04 GMT -5
My only experience annealing is with brass rifle casings. When setting up the machine some of the cases will not get fully annealed. Once it's set up properly I run all those test pieces back through for a full anneal. Doesn't seem to make any difference. Some guys anneal after every shot, some after 2 or 3 or 5 shots. Again it doesn't seem to matter. Annealed is annealed, and the only way to screw it up is if you get things way too hot and change the elastic properties of the metal. I would think these same principles apply to annealing copper bullets to make them softer/more malleable.
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 10, 2022 12:25:14 GMT -5
The question is, will there be a difference between the double torched bullets and the single torched bullets? Do your bullets get full formed, shot in sabots, or are they land riders? Softer land riders may obturate differently and have a different POI than the once annealed bullets. To a lesser extent, saboted bullets may do the same. My bullets all get full formed, and due to my unscientific methods, some bullets get much more annealed than others, but I haven't noticed any POI differences.
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Sept 11, 2022 14:15:06 GMT -5
The question is, will there be a difference between the double torched bullets and the single torched bullets? Do your bullets get full formed, shot in sabots, or are they land riders? Softer land riders may obturate differently and have a different POI than the once annealed bullets. To a lesser extent, saboted bullets may do the same. My bullets all get full formed, and due to my unscientific methods, some bullets get much more annealed than others, but I haven't noticed any POI differences. These are for sabots. They are not obturating as is and blowing sabots so annealing is my final option.
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 12, 2022 11:21:56 GMT -5
That being the case, I would put a slight knurl on them with a file to reduce the risk of the bullet rotating within the sabot upon firing.
I once had such a problem with groups being over four inches, and after putting a slight knurl on them, got one inch groups. It didn't help that the bullets were .399 instead of .400" and the slight knurl not only helped the sabots grip the bullets, but brought the diameter to .400".
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 12, 2022 14:36:10 GMT -5
Copper head gaskets arent bullets but those you anneal every time you take the head off and put it back on over and over again . Me personally would anneal them all again if i couldnt tell the difference . I dont know how any others here fit a sabot but i like .003 to .004 thou of interferance fit in the bore , especially with non easily obturateing copper bullets after i knurl them . I use a set of small hole guages by Starret and mic them after i measure land to land . Thats really the only way repeatability is guarrenteed for fit across the loaded sabot/bullet shank . I think it does help beyond imparting spin . A wool wad or 2 in before the sabot helps keep heat off that base of the sabot that weakens them . Bp and subs burning dont produce near the heat of smokeless . Bp or subs are what most sabots are designed for and In fact the red hrvester sabot 50 cal for Savages is the only one designed for SML that i know of . Ive had luck with a polywad right under the bullet IN the sabot too increaseing thickness of the base . Those Remingtom Ultimate sabots are some tough ones and I wish MMP would release them for sale in a 45/ 40 with the same material and base thickness . You might even try a drop or 2 of JB epoxy in the sabot cup to let harden up for those CEBs . Those bullets are really hard to shoot fast in a sabot without blowing the sabot . They sure are effective killers though . A different powder may help stop sabot failure and/or reduceing your charge . Cutting Edge does offer them in a 45 Maximus but the bc is kinda lame if saboted wont shoot for you . The Bear Creek Ballistics 45s are nice bullets too to try in copper . 240s and 280 or so iirc for bullet to bore . A good swat on the base to obturate a mono is helped with veggie wads or polywads for landriders . I like a little knurl on mono's to help them stay put in the bore just to make sure beyond fouling or ambient temps . Ordered to spec size this works good . Bear Creek offered this at N/C last order .
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Post by hillbill on Sept 12, 2022 20:03:35 GMT -5
To answer the original question. No you will not see a difference between the bullets as long as you reheat to about the same temperature. I heat my solid coppers til they turn pink top to bottom,then quench them.
But as danno said you can knurl and they will quit spinning within the plastic.
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Sept 15, 2022 5:19:37 GMT -5
That being the case, I would put a slight knurl on them with a file to reduce the risk of the bullet rotating within the sabot upon firing. I once had such a problem with groups being over four inches, and after putting a slight knurl on them, got one inch groups. It didn't help that the bullets were .399 instead of .400" and the slight knurl not only helped the sabots grip the bullets, but brought the diameter to .400". Both type of bullets had been knurled before shooting. Also tried with reduced load. They would not even print on my 4x4' range box it was so bad. Yet the same loads, same sabots at the same test time with Fury's were absolutely fine.
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 15, 2022 6:49:41 GMT -5
The joys of some monos....... This keyholeing is also why some members refuse to shoot sabots anymore . They simply refuse to deal with shenaniguns and i can see why !!! Certain bullets are just plain difficult if not next to impossible to control shot out of a sabot . No easy answers are found . At least with a annealed bore rider you may get good accuracy with the same bullet designs just bigger if you cant yet conquer the sabot preformances of them . You wont be the first to send up the white flag !!! It could even be they need a longer petal sabot and none exists for a cleaner air catching release and more support . Things can be quite frustrateing in sabot land when options or brain storms cease .
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Post by dennis on Sept 15, 2022 7:20:00 GMT -5
Anytime I have experienced keyholing a wad has corrected the issue, I am referring to smooth sized bullets. I have had both jacketed and solids keyhole and have (always) had to use a wad with solids/mono bullets. Also I have had different rifles want a different wad, one wanted a veggie wad and the other a wool wad, only way to tell is try them side by side. JME
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Sept 30, 2022 19:41:51 GMT -5
Annealed the CEB's that didn't get mixed up and shot them in sabots no wad. 10/50 N110/I4198 H.I.S ignition. 2720fps, less than 3/4" at 100yds. All recovered sabots looked great! I lowered the 4198 in incriments down to 45 grains and poi and groups were still basically the same and fps was about 2590. Settled on 10/47 to give some temp room in both directions. Pretty happy with results. For the heck of it I shot 3 Smokeless Fury tipped 225 with same sabot and load and got a slightly better group. First two shots same hole, third shot a touch higher but I could have pulled that one. Those averaged about 2700fps. Im worried if I was to use the Fury at that speed they would explode on a deer and ruin a ton of meat but we will see.
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Post by spikes on Oct 5, 2022 16:51:12 GMT -5
Annealed the CEB's that didn't get mixed up and shot them in sabots no wad. 10/50 N110/I4198 H.I.S ignition. 2720fps, less than 3/4" at 100yds. All recovered sabots looked great! I lowered the 4198 in incriments down to 45 grains and poi and groups were still basically the same and fps was about 2590. Settled on 10/47 to give some temp room in both directions. Pretty happy with results. For the heck of it I shot 3 Smokeless Fury tipped 225 with same sabot and load and got a slightly better group. First two shots same hole, third shot a touch higher but I could have pulled that one. Those averaged about 2700fps. Im worried if I was to use the Fury at that speed they would explode on a deer and ruin a ton of meat but we will see. glad you go those coppers to shoot finally. im a little jealous for sure. ive just about given up on the daggum solids for all the trouble in my CVA scout. The fury's shoot good, hornady xtps shoot really good. Pittmans' probably shoot the best. with muzzleloader season just a few weeks away here im prob gonna stick with the Pittmans hardcores. Good luck this season!
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Oct 5, 2022 18:14:35 GMT -5
Annealed the CEB's that didn't get mixed up and shot them in sabots no wad. 10/50 N110/I4198 H.I.S ignition. 2720fps, less than 3/4" at 100yds. All recovered sabots looked great! I lowered the 4198 in incriments down to 45 grains and poi and groups were still basically the same and fps was about 2590. Settled on 10/47 to give some temp room in both directions. Pretty happy with results. For the heck of it I shot 3 Smokeless Fury tipped 225 with same sabot and load and got a slightly better group. First two shots same hole, third shot a touch higher but I could have pulled that one. Those averaged about 2700fps. Im worried if I was to use the Fury at that speed they would explode on a deer and ruin a ton of meat but we will see. glad you go those coppers to shoot finally. im a little jealous for sure. ive just about given up on the daggum solids for all the trouble in my CVA scout. The fury's shoot good, hornady xtps shoot really good. Pittmans' probably shoot the best. with muzzleloader season just a few weeks away here im prob gonna stick with the Pittmans hardcores. Good luck this season! Thanks! Did you ever try the Bear Creeks? I knew the Fury's would group so got them as backup but glad the CEB's are finally working out.
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Post by spikes on Oct 5, 2022 20:05:50 GMT -5
glad you go those coppers to shoot finally. im a little jealous for sure. ive just about given up on the daggum solids for all the trouble in my CVA scout. The fury's shoot good, hornady xtps shoot really good. Pittmans' probably shoot the best. with muzzleloader season just a few weeks away here im prob gonna stick with the Pittmans hardcores. Good luck this season! Thanks! Did you ever try the Bear Creeks? I knew the Fury's would group so got them as backup but glad the CEB's are finally working out. No I haven't! they took SOOOO long to get to me, my busy season for work had already started. Did they ever shoot for you?
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Oct 6, 2022 8:32:25 GMT -5
Thanks! Did you ever try the Bear Creeks? I knew the Fury's would group so got them as backup but glad the CEB's are finally working out. No I haven't! they took SOOOO long to get to me, my busy season for work had already started. Did they ever shoot for you? Yes they shot excellent, especially with a poly wad behind them. If I was not intent on using a sabot for hunting I would be shooting the Bear Creeks for sure! I also had good luck with the Maker bullets. Im going to try both of them in my .50 with blackhorn and sabots too.
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Post by spikes on Oct 6, 2022 14:20:02 GMT -5
No I haven't! they took SOOOO long to get to me, my busy season for work had already started. Did they ever shoot for you? Yes they shot excellent, especially with a poly wad behind them. If I was not intent on using a sabot for hunting I would be shooting the Bear Creeks for sure! I also had good luck with the Maker bullets. Im going to try both of them in my .50 with blackhorn and sabots too. Good to hear. I may have to try them then before muzzleloader opens. Out of curiosity why are you intent on sabots?
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Oct 8, 2022 4:33:49 GMT -5
Yes they shot excellent, especially with a poly wad behind them. If I was not intent on using a sabot for hunting I would be shooting the Bear Creeks for sure! I also had good luck with the Maker bullets. Im going to try both of them in my .50 with blackhorn and sabots too. Good to hear. I may have to try them then before muzzleloader opens. Out of curiosity why are you intent on sabots? My CVA bore is not super consistent when loading bullet to bore even though I get good accuracy. I don't feel the bullet is seated tight enough on the powder to be banging around in the Jeep and slogging through the woods loaded for qeeks at a time without coming off the powder. The sabots will rebound past barrel inconsistencies and load a lot smoother. They also allow me a higher BC bullet at lower weight and I am getting a more consistent velocity. Also faster, easier loading in the field with a better seal for whether and humidity. Im not willing to experiment with bullet to bore with the above issues on a buck of a lifetime with sabots shooting so well. Temperature is never a factor for me with sabots as I shoot at home and rest the barrel inside to control temp and humidity between shots, load then acclimate to temp outside with a finger cot again before next shot. ML season is Nov and Dec here in NH and MA so temps could be 60-70 or 0 but single shot or a second follow up shot is never a heat problem.
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Post by sew on Oct 15, 2022 9:22:04 GMT -5
Good to hear. I may have to try them then before muzzleloader opens. Out of curiosity why are you intent on sabots? My CVA bore is not super consistent when loading bullet to bore even though I get good accuracy. I don't feel the bullet is seated tight enough on the powder to be banging around in the Jeep and slogging through the woods loaded for qeeks at a time without coming off the powder. The sabots will rebound past barrel inconsistencies and load a lot smoother. They also allow me a higher BC bullet at lower weight and I am getting a more consistent velocity. Also faster, easier loading in the field with a better seal for whether and humidity. Im not willing to experiment with bullet to bore with the above issues on a buck of a lifetime with sabots shooting so well. Temperature is never a factor for me with sabots as I shoot at home and rest the barrel inside to control temp and humidity between shots, load then acclimate to temp outside with a finger cot again before next shot. ML season is Nov and Dec here in NH and MA so temps could be 60-70 or 0 but single shot or a second follow up shot is never a heat problem. I have been down the road you’re on for nearly 2 decades (totally, jumped off 3-4 years ago). For 20 years my PN 40/ML2 would shoot knurled 200g XTPs and SSTs well sub-MOA and, up thru 2,900’/sec. However, my 45PN /10ML2s could do the same, and even past 3,000. Things got better in both calibers with sized Furys and Pittmans. However, the converted 45/70s seemed more accurate, for me, with sabots than bore sized. I think this has to do with the lesser bore size consistency of these factory barrels. Sabots are far more forgiving than bore sized bullets in lower quality barrels. Plus, the 40 cal bullets have a better BC and less recoil.
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Oct 16, 2022 3:25:57 GMT -5
My CVA bore is not super consistent when loading bullet to bore even though I get good accuracy. I don't feel the bullet is seated tight enough on the powder to be banging around in the Jeep and slogging through the woods loaded for qeeks at a time without coming off the powder. The sabots will rebound past barrel inconsistencies and load a lot smoother. They also allow me a higher BC bullet at lower weight and I am getting a more consistent velocity. Also faster, easier loading in the field with a better seal for whether and humidity. Im not willing to experiment with bullet to bore with the above issues on a buck of a lifetime with sabots shooting so well. Temperature is never a factor for me with sabots as I shoot at home and rest the barrel inside to control temp and humidity between shots, load then acclimate to temp outside with a finger cot again before next shot. ML season is Nov and Dec here in NH and MA so temps could be 60-70 or 0 but single shot or a second follow up shot is never a heat problem. I have been down the road you’re on for nearly 2 decades (totally, jumped off 3-4 years ago). For 20 years my PN 40/ML2 would shoot knurled 200g XTPs and SSTs well sub-MOA and, up thru 2,900’/sec. However, my 45PN /10ML2s could do the same, and even past 3,000. Things got better in both calibers with sized Furys and Pittmans. However, the converted 45/70s seemed more accurate, for me, with sabots than bore sized. I think this has to do with the lesser bore size consistency of these factory barrels. Sabots are far more forgiving than bore sized bullets in lower quality barrels. Plus, the 40 cal bullets have a better BC and less recoil. Yes, you can really feel the inconsistency bullet to bore in the factory CVA barrel. Its not horrible but definitely noticable. Iv lapped it as much as I dare already. With sabots its smooth and consistent all the way down. The sabots will rebound past inconsistencies and keep a good seal for hunting which is what I am really concerned about. The other factor is wild temp swings during my two ML seasons. Could be 70 or could be 5. The sabots help take up slack from cold contraction. Above all else they give me confidence with all my concerns. After the season I plan for some real world controlled testing with condensation and I will test with bullet to bore as well.
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