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Post by Kyle on Jun 4, 2022 19:41:22 GMT -5
I have seen a pattern for the past several years with posts and questions related to this topic. Those that tune in on a regular basis I’m sure have seen them as well.
When the following don’t exist:
*An obstructed flame channel *Contaminated / damp powder *Damp bore / breech plug *Gap between bullet and powder *Contaminated / improperly stored primers *A loaded muzzleloader subjected to cold, heat, cold, heat…… moisture sweating into the powder.
Look at your bullet to bore tension. When it is hot outside one can get away with a looser bullet to bore fit. Most often a looser fit shoots more accurate than a tighter fit.
When the weather turns off cold it becomes a different ball game. Velocity can drop off 60 fps or more due to the powder burning at a slower rate. If you have trouble getting ignition when the time comes, look at the topics above. If those don’t exist, make your bullet to bore fit tighter and / or add a wad between the powder and bullet.
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Jun 4, 2022 21:40:15 GMT -5
I have seen a pattern for the past several years with posts and questions related to this topic. Those that tune in on a regular basis I’m sure have seen them as well. When the following don’t exist: *An obstructed flame channel *Contaminated / damp powder *Damp bore / breech plug *Gap between bullet and powder *Contaminated / improperly stored primers *A loaded muzzleloader subjected to cold, heat, cold, heat…… moisture sweating into the powder. Look at your bullet to bore tension. When it is hot outside one can get away with a looser bullet to bore fit. Most often a looser fit shoots more accurate than a tighter fit. When the weather turns off cold it becomes a different ball game. Velocity can drop off 60 fps or more due to the powder burning at a slower rate. If you have trouble getting ignition when the time comes, look at the topics above. If those don’t exist, make your bullet to bore fit tighter and / or add a wad between the powder and bullet. Exactly why I have decided to go with a sabot for hunting season where temps could be 75+ to -10, even though I am get less than moa with several bullets to bore.
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Post by Richard on Jun 4, 2022 22:07:29 GMT -5
Go to Direct Ignition. I have had it ignite powder in my bore when I forgot to put a bullet in!
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Post by buckeye68 on Jun 5, 2022 0:13:36 GMT -5
I have seen a pattern for the past several years with posts and questions related to this topic. Those that tune in on a regular basis I’m sure have seen them as well. When the following don’t exist: *An obstructed flame channel *Contaminated / damp powder *Damp bore / breech plug *Gap between bullet and powder *Contaminated / improperly stored primers *A loaded muzzleloader subjected to cold, heat, cold, heat…… moisture sweating into the powder. Look at your bullet to bore tension. When it is hot outside one can get away with a looser bullet to bore fit. Most often a looser fit shoots more accurate than a tighter fit. When the weather turns off cold it becomes a different ball game. Velocity can drop off 60 fps or more due to the powder burning at a slower rate. If you have trouble getting ignition when the time comes, look at the topics above. If those don’t exist, make your bullet to bore fit tighter and / or add a wad between the powder and bullet. Exactly why I have decided to go with a sabot for hunting season where temps could be 75+ to -10, even though I am get less than moa with several bullets to bore. Of course we can write a whole list of reasons why not to shoot a sabot also…….
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miked
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by miked on Jun 5, 2022 10:45:50 GMT -5
While that is true, I believe for modest velocity and distance in severe temp fluctuations and the loaded charge banging around for weeks plus the sabot will hold tension and seal far greater than bullet to bore even with a wad. Factor in a lot of these factory barrels having minor internal diameter inconsistencies where the sabot will rebound past them where a bullet to bore is now too loose perminantly. For bench shooting thats fine but banging around the woods and vehicles for weeks I don't think so.
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Post by hillbill on Jun 5, 2022 11:52:23 GMT -5
I have been in this game for a long time and I'm just speaking from practical experience having used sabots for years and bore riders for years.
JMO but the ONLY time a saboted load has the advantage over a bore rider load is IF you choose to shoot a reduced recoil load with a super light bullet, then it makes sense. OR if you have a barrel that is very inconsistent and a bore rider isn't practical. I never shoot a bullet loose enough to worry about bumping it off the powder charge, even if you shoot extremely loose a quick check with the ramrod gives peace of mind.
I too shoot in extreme temp swings and bang my guns around a good bit, never a problem. I don't shoot wads in anything .45 but do in most .40s. keeping powder dry is done pretty easily as long as you keep it from sweating caused by bringing it in from the cold into a warm room or truck. I cover may barrel with a balloon or glove finger and always keep a spent primer in when not in use with a charge in place, this eliminates moisture infiltration and is a loaded gun reminder.
Nothing at all wrong with using sabots If you want to roll that way, they have worked for years and will continue to do so but I'm betting over the next few years you will make the switch and never look back like most of the rest of us.
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Post by sew on Jun 6, 2022 11:39:41 GMT -5
Sabots.
I know that I’m odd man out, but as Bill (&I think Richard) said, sabots have their place. I worked on load development for the 10ML and ML2 and later went to various 45s. Likely >10K saboted shots. If their limitations are respected, they can be shot very reliability and accurately to over 3,000’/sec. I think many people shooting break opens and light 45s could be better served shooting sabots. Young and recoil sensitive people especially as well as shorter range shooters. Shoulders and scopes do better with light recoil.
Saboted loads can easily shoot 1/2 MOA out to 200 yards and somewhat beyond. Reliability can be extreme. 402 bullets will need to be resized to appx 400 and lightly knurled. 400 bullets are ok as they are. ALL copper bullets benefit with annealing and light knurling. Very light (reduced loads) loading can be used much easier than with a bore rider.
I don’t like shooting sabots but don’t feel the need/want for a 45 cal bullet for the hunting I do. Therefore, I shoot a 40 , get to shoot a lighter, higher BC bullet and get to bore ride with less recoil and powder.
Just another person’s take.
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Post by ballistic on Jun 6, 2022 13:53:34 GMT -5
I have seen a pattern for the past several years with posts and questions related to this topic. Those that tune in on a regular basis I’m sure have seen them as well. When the following don’t exist: *An obstructed flame channel *Contaminated / damp powder *Damp bore / breech plug *Gap between bullet and powder *Contaminated / improperly stored primers *A loaded muzzleloader subjected to cold, heat, cold, heat…… moisture sweating into the powder. Look at your bullet to bore tension. When it is hot outside one can get away with a looser bullet to bore fit. Most often a looser fit shoots more accurate than a tighter fit. When the weather turns off cold it becomes a different ball game. Velocity can drop off 60 fps or more due to the powder burning at a slower rate. If you have trouble getting ignition when the time comes, look at the topics above. If those don’t exist, make your bullet to bore fit tighter and / or add a wad between the powder and bullet. Kyle You hit the nail on the head when you are talking about sized bullets that are harder to load in warm temps with increases in velocities. And the opposite in colder temps with easier to load. Anyone that says they haven’t experienced this with smooth sized bullets -or claims of speeds that never vary with temps - with thier “special extreme powder” hasn’t shot in truly cold or hot temps with smooth sized bullets. Some powders do better than others but they are not exempt from velocity increases/ decreases due to temperature and the friction (loading pressure to push the round down the barrel) that varies with temperature changes. Both temp of the barrel and the powder and friction of the round are seperate and work together or against increases or decreases in speed. I can add that humidity also plays a role in speeds with higher humidity lowering speeds and changing the fouling. I’ve been playing this game for a very long time and taking good detailed notes on conditions. But I’m sure someone out their will tell a different story - one that will be hard to believe or they just got luckier than I’ve ever been able to get or any of the folks I know that have also been playing this game.
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Post by flattopusa on Jun 14, 2022 6:48:49 GMT -5
All good stuff. I can only tell you what I do with my cartridge guns and my SML. About 50 to 55 years ago and old time Benchrest shooter told me that for hunting always work up your load and sight your gun in at the median temp for your hunting environment. My hunting environment median temp is 40 degrees. When I Work up loads and sight my gun in at or very near that temp. That gives me a 40 degree swing in temps where the performance is stable and the point of impact does not change....if it does it is negligible. I am good from 20 to 60 degrees more or less, and over the years I have checked to make sure. My SML shoots paper patched cast bullets smooth sized and all it takes at that temp is one hand pressure to seat the bullet on top of the charge, so they are a reasonably loose fit.I have checked the seating depth of the bullet often while hunting and using the mark on my ram rod they have never come off the charge regardless of how rough the gun has been treated....and I check during the season as need be. I also have Hanks Direct Ignition System and have never had ignition issues.
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Post by dannoboone on Jun 14, 2022 11:54:33 GMT -5
I do much the same as you, Flattop. A couple of my loads are pretty temp-sensitive so it makes no sense to check accuracy in the 70's only to hunt in fall temps. Early ML season in Iowa CAN be as high as 70* but usually in the 50's, sometimes in the 40's.
Might add that I still use duplex and full form bullets and have never had FTF issues, even with the 209M system.
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Post by sew on Jul 7, 2022 9:13:35 GMT -5
VV110 proved to be the best, most consistent powder during the early testing of the 10ML and ML2. Clean, always went bang and virtually totally temp insensitive. I tested it from -5 F to 100F. <50’/sec difference. 200 yards within 1” same impacts. 2,450’/sec, 45g/250 XTP/SST, WW, early on - MMP short. The Sav 10ML2 manual had VV110 44g +/- g, 250-300g bullets as a factory load. Later editions reduced the load to 42g. Sabots didn’t fail in cool barrels.
When 45 PN/10ML2s became popular, no powder offered the qualities of the above load. Closest was 10/50 VV110 or 4759/H4198. Still over 100’/sec differences at 10-20 degrees vs 100 degrees.
Still wanting to use the seemingly, slightly too fast VV110, even in my 45s, I started with 35g and worked up to 37g and HLBS, WW, knurled 200 SST or 195 B and nearly 2,600’/sec. Very little recoil, clean, sub MOA accuracy, always gos “bang”, and works great in poorer quality factory barrels such as my NEF Handi-Rifle. Many converted factory barrels seem to do better with saboted loads because sabots are more tolerant of inconsistent barrels.
Sabots still have their place. Or, get a 40.😊
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Post by younghunter86 on Dec 21, 2022 21:07:31 GMT -5
I have seen a pattern for the past several years with posts and questions related to this topic. Those that tune in on a regular basis I’m sure have seen them as well. When the following don’t exist: *An obstructed flame channel *Contaminated / damp powder *Damp bore / breech plug *Gap between bullet and powder *Contaminated / improperly stored primers *A loaded muzzleloader subjected to cold, heat, cold, heat…… moisture sweating into the powder. Look at your bullet to bore tension. When it is hot outside one can get away with a looser bullet to bore fit. Most often a looser fit shoots more accurate than a tighter fit. When the weather turns off cold it becomes a different ball game. Velocity can drop off 60 fps or more due to the powder burning at a slower rate. If you have trouble getting ignition when the time comes, look at the topics above. If those don’t exist, make your bullet to bore fit tighter and / or add a wad between the powder and bullet. So I have a 700ml with pacnor barrel and am trying to shoot 275 gr Fury’s and am struggling to get good ignition in the single digits. Using 65 gr H4198 and 209A’s and flash channel was drilled out. Last weekend I had one shot where primer didn’t ignite powder (pushed powder and bullet ~1/2”) and an additional one that looked like it keyholed in target. Thought issue was sized to small so I sized them larger to the point they were difficult to seat, but it appears one keyholed in target at 100 yards yesterday. I did not have chrono setup so can’t tell you velocity. Two questions - 1) Is it worth trying with a vegi wad and 2) if the velocity is slower and it keyholed how could it even hit the target? Just want some advice. I’m so close to just switching to a sabot load to get through this deer season. Thanks in advance.
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Post by sew on Dec 21, 2022 21:47:18 GMT -5
My advice: switch to a sabot and duplex. Or Still go bore sized but consider a duplex, likely 5-7g VV110, 4759 or 5744 and about 10g less of your 4198. Consider a wad with either way you go.
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Post by Richard on Dec 21, 2022 22:17:09 GMT -5
I agree Steve..........work up a duplex load that shoots comparable to a single powder load and then use it in cold weather. You can't beat having the primer flame striking that fast burning starter charge which will, in turn, ignite the slower powder!
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Dec 22, 2022 4:54:34 GMT -5
My advice: switch to a sabot and duplex. Or Still go bore sized but consider a duplex, likely 5-7g VV110, 4759 or 5744 and about 10g less of your 4198. Consider a wad with either way you go. I have been shooting sabotless using Federal 209A Primers with duplex loads and wads for the last 11 years. I have a Savage style breechplug.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 22, 2022 9:33:07 GMT -5
Smokeless powder requires pressure (compaction density) to ignite reliably, Wads in 209 guns help, as does tight fitting bullets, hot primers such as the 209A also improves ignition.
Back in the day we recessed our vent liners and later bushings to shorten the flame path which improved ignition.
as has been discussed certain powders are easier to ignite than others.
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Post by dannoboone on Dec 22, 2022 12:53:03 GMT -5
Smokeless powder requires pressure (compaction density) to ignite reliably, Wads in 209 guns help, as does tight fitting bullets, hot primers such as the 209A also improves ignition. Back in the day we recessed our vent liners and later bushings to shorten the flame path which improved ignition. Guess I'm still living "back in the day". Still exclusively use duplex with both LRMP and 209's. Still harvest deer without T-Rex loads. BP in one rifle is recessed while the other is not...doesn't seem to make a difference with duplexing. All bullets get full-formed whether for the .451 barrel or the .458 barrel. Beginning to feel like a dinosaur.
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Post by sew on Dec 22, 2022 13:01:29 GMT -5
Though I’m tickled pink with my 2 state of the art 40s, my 20+ year old 10ML2/PN , 209 ignited 40 gives up no accuracy to the new 40s. Has never misfired ever.
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Post by younghunter86 on Dec 23, 2022 7:49:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the input. Long term I’ll dry the duplex route but for the short term I’ll go with a sabot. I have harvester light blue and some 225gr .40 Fury’s. Estimate of charge weight to start with H4198? Seems like I remember seeing low to mid 50’s?
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Post by sew on Dec 23, 2022 9:24:37 GMT -5
58g H4198 is a pretty commonly used load for 225g bullets and 60-62 for 200g bullets. The most common duplex, extremely well tried and proven, is 10/50 consisting of 4759 or VV110 or 5744 under 50 g H4198. Using the duplex load not only helps insure quick, positive ignition but also increases the initial pressure rise, making the obturation more consistent, thus increasing accuracy AND decreasing the temperature sensitivity of the load.
However…
The ultimate load I found overall for saboted, 209, 45 cal loads is not a duplex load. It is a straight VV110 load of 36g or even 37-39 g with a 195-225g 40 cal bullet in a HLBS. A Maine wool wad under the sabot and the bullet very lightly knurled. 402 Bullets may need to be sized to 0.400” for most, if not all, 45 PN barrels. VV110 is an incredibly efficient powder for this usage - extremely clean, very temp insensitive, low ESs (usually single digits), easy to ignite and requires comparatively low amounts of powder.
Again, safe in mine and many others but yours?
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