mitch
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by mitch on May 30, 2022 13:07:59 GMT -5
Hey everyone,
I'm just waiting on the last pieces of my build to come together and I'm trying to plan out my testing and development. I've tried to do a decent job of reading through what I could here (and peeking over at the .45-cal area as well to understand things a little better). But I seemed to have turned myself around a bit and I'm not really sure where to start. So I thought I'd throw out a lifeline and see if you more experienced folks could help me out a bit.
The ask: I'm looking for an idea of what powder to start at for my load development. Every gun is different and I'm a decently experienced handloader, so I'm not going to jump in trying someone max load, but right now I don't really have a good handle even on the approximate powder amounts to start at.
The loads: I have a schwack of Hornady 180gr HAP pistol bullets, and Arrowhead 300gr XLD bullets. Powders I currently have on hand for my centerfires: IMR 4064, Hodgdon H4350, H4831SC, and H1000. I'd prefer to keep to these, but if I have to add another powder that's just the name of the game. No wads, smooth forming.
The goal:
Goal for the pistol bullets is practice, and a lower-recoil hunting load good out to 200yd or a bit further for my wife and nephew. Call the desired MV around 3,000fps.
Goal for the Arrowheads is longer-range hunting, basically try to squeeze all the performance out of it I can. 300yd effective range minimum; I'm good out to 500yd with my current centerfire rifles and if I can get that from muzzleloader season too, I'd be tickled pink. Call the desired MV somewhere 2,700fps-plus. If I can get more like 3,000, 3,100 (safely and accurately) then I'm overjoyed. I'm in Canada so legally I'd be limited to 3,327fps with a 300gr bullet before I'd be a criminal with over 10,000 Joules ME, but I'm really not expecting to get near that haha.
The gun: Savage short-action in a thumbhole laminate stock. 26" barrel, 1:16" twist with brake. Hankins HBAIS (9/16" thread), no powder chamber.
IMR 4064 is closest in burn-rate to the powders I've seen mentioned in other threads (like Reloader 15, 16, Hodgdon BL-C2, etc), with H4350 a bit slower (similar to Reloader 17). I have no idea where to start with powder loads, though. I've seen 50gr, 60gr mentioned (including powder chambers of that size) and in other threads 100-120gr sort of ranges.
So, what do the more experienced folks here think would be a good place to start load development for each of these bullets? Right now I'm thinking of starting around 40gr of IMR 4064 with the pistol bullet and 70gr H4350 with the Arrowhead...
Thanks in advance,
Mitch
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Post by joelmoney on May 30, 2022 21:06:07 GMT -5
If planning on using 2 different bullets I would recommend using 2 different sizing dies. I would recommend looking into Direct Ignition. Sew has some experience with pistol bullets I believe. I know some have played with 4166.
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mitch
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by mitch on May 30, 2022 21:41:13 GMT -5
If planning on using 2 different bullets I would recommend using 2 different sizing dies. I would recommend looking into Direct Ignition. Sew has some experience with pistol bullets I believe. I know some have played with 4166. Different sizing dies needed due to the bullets having different springback from forming? I contacted Hank with the details of my build before buying the components and he told me I needed the HBAIS so that's what I bought from him... |
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Post by joelmoney on May 30, 2022 22:13:10 GMT -5
I have not heard of 2 bullet types sizing the with one die setting. Resetting the die is a pain and can be a waste of bullets.
For loads you could look at some of the encore loads. Thinking wads would likely be very helpful.
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Post by buckeye68 on May 30, 2022 22:36:24 GMT -5
What is HBAIS?
Since your planning to shoot Arrowhead’s 300 grain XLD bullets, I would think that the manufacture of those bullets should be able to help you with your powder options.
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Post by hillbill on May 31, 2022 4:13:45 GMT -5
The powders you mentioned will likely be a no go. I tried several of those early on in my .40 days and they didn't work for me, while some may look good on paper they burned terrible. You will be fine with modules but there is a good chance you will need to use wads. Pistol bullets? You can try them but you will be in virgin territory.
Accuracy will not be your problem, it will be finding the right combo.
Yes if you are using different bullets it's much easier having a different die, it's a pain trying to go back and forth with the same die, just because a die has marks on it don't mean it will return to the same setting , trust me, it won't, a quality micrometer and feel going down the barrel will be the only true setting indicator when changing die settings.
Look back over all the .40 stuff you can find and go from there, the .40 bore is very picky, the challenge is finding a powder/bullet combo that will jive and leave the bore in a usable condition upon firing repeat shots.
for a light youth load you will likely be better served with Kyle's 225 accumax, several use them with good results and they have load info for them.
If you have Quickload it will be a big help, if trying unproven loads it's the only way to get in the ball park.
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mitch
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by mitch on May 31, 2022 12:08:04 GMT -5
What is HBAIS? Since your planning to shoot Arrowhead’s 300 grain XLD bullets, I would think that the manufacture of those bullets should be able to help you with your powder options. HBAIS is the Break-Action ignition system (9/16 thread). Hank recommended it for a Savage prefit (https://hanksprecisiongunparts.com/p/hankins-break-action-ignition-system-hbais-complete-kit-9-16-24-tpi). Good idea, thanks. I've reached out to Arrowhead as well. |
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mitch
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by mitch on May 31, 2022 12:23:49 GMT -5
The powders you mentioned will likely be a no go. I tried several of those early on in my .40 days and they didn't work for me, while some may look good on paper they burned terrible. You will be fine with modules but there is a good chance you will need to use wads. Pistol bullets? You can try them but you will be in virgin territory.
Accuracy will not be your problem, it will be finding the right combo.
Yes if you are using different bullets it's much easier having a different die, it's a pain trying to go back and forth with the same die, just because a die has marks on it don't mean it will return to the same setting , trust me, it won't, a quality micrometer and feel going down the barrel will be the only true setting indicator when changing die settings.
Look back over all the .40 stuff you can find and go from there, the .40 bore is very picky, the challenge is finding a powder/bullet combo that will jive and leave the bore in a usable condition upon firing repeat shots.
for a light youth load you will likely be better served with Kyle's 225 accumax, several use them with good results and they have load info for them.
If you have Quickload it will be a big help, if trying unproven loads it's the only way to get in the ball park.
Thanks Bill I appreciate the response. Your biggest challenge with those powders was the fouling? From what I've read, using a wad helps with velocity consistency because of the improved sealing and less reliance on bullet obturation to seal; is that right or are there other benefits to them as well? Thanks for the sizing die guidance, fellas.  Using a pistol bullet was actually how I first found out about smokeless muzzleloaders. A guy up here in Canada shoots them in his and I was impressed by the results and got in contact with him and the barrel maker to find out more.  I've reached out for his loads too, but I didn't realize the pistol bullet choice was so unusual. Especially with being up here in Canada and all the shipping costs from places like Pittman or Arrowhead, a pistol bullet is about 1/10th the cost :-( Thanks again for all your help and advise, guys. This is really, really helpful and I appreciate it. |
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Post by hillbill on May 31, 2022 16:54:01 GMT -5
Also keep in mind you are using a prefit barrel with a smaller shank diameter, that will somewhat limit your pressures, the 9/16 plug and a .408 bore will help in that regard, just don't get too carried away with the big loads.
I have had pretty good success with 300s and RL-15 & IMR 4166, as you will quickly find out finding a load you can do repeat shots with will be the challenge, with your shank size a 275 accumax would be the ticket, H-4895 works fairly well with that bullet.
Go ahead and order some wool wads, you will likely end up using them.
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mitch
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by mitch on May 31, 2022 20:58:50 GMT -5
Thanks Bill.
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Post by joelmoney on Jun 1, 2022 21:24:54 GMT -5
My interpretation of what a wad actually dose is helps hold a seal till the bullet has a chance to obturate.
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Post by sew on Jun 5, 2022 9:29:57 GMT -5
All the advice you have been given is excellent, IMO.
I’m a short to mid-range 40 cal shooter. I have a 40 cal Savage similar to yours (about 20 years). No chamber. Incredibly accurate! Best loads: 6/60 VV110/Varget up through 7/70 (2930’/sec with 225 AM). I think that load is likely too hot. However, it consistently stays well below 2” 3-shot 300 yard groups with fair rests and a 2x8 scope. Maine wool wad, smooth sized bullet.This is with 209 ignition. This would be much hotter with your ignition. Less need for the first primer powder or at least, as much.
I’m currently using a 228 AM with 6.5/65 same powders at 2825. Use witness marks on your range and ram rods!
Though VV530 may be a better (cleaner) choice, I primarily use H4895 on my other 2 40s (each with 60 g chambers - 50 if I had it to do again so I could use 4198 if I wanted). I’m working on a 2700’/sec load using 4085 full sized Hammer (annealed) out of my light 40 and 2900 out of my heavier 40.H4895.
40s are harder to obturate than 45s. Wads help speed up the obturation. They’re just a crutch/bandaid. Best to not use them if possible. I usually need to use them. DI will obturate quicker than HIS. I accept the nuisance that comes with DI for the advantage in my 2 more modern 40s. With my single, rather robust 45, though I have DI, I just use HIS.
40s at light to med loads,with many powders, are just foulers. I shoot 3-4 times with a loose load, wipe with dry patch and size to that fouling. After that, 1 in and out with a wire brush between shots. Really hot loads burn cleaner. I think VV530 is cleaner. I haven’t ruled out H4198 (55+/-) and 228 AM. VV powders and some Accurate Arms powders (such as 2015) seem to burn fairly clean in my non-chambered 40 like yours.
Your smaller BP is just common sense to me, I have the same. This board is largely benchrest or very long range shooting. Much of the content is about robust rifles, heavy loads and long range. Your rifle and 2 of my 3 40s aren’t robust in that sense. We need to respect our limitations. However, I only hunt Arkansas, primarily deer and ALL my shooting has that end goal. 300g bullets are a bit heavy for a retrofit, IMO but with slow enough powder (moderate load of 4895 ) , can be usable but not at anywhere near 3000’/sec.
Quick Load. I’ve used since around 2000 for CF and in a far less sophisticated manner for helping with factory loads in the 10ML and later ML2, 45 and 40 retrofits. Though I don’t go into the sophistication of working up nodes that Kyle and some others do, I do use QL for estimating pressures of various loads. Unexplored territories in 40 calibur loadings are made much safer with QL. I can’t imagine being without it.
40s build pressure very fast! Be careful!
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mitch
Junior Member
Posts: 90
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Post by mitch on Jun 8, 2022 15:10:00 GMT -5
Awesome thorough response, thanks SEW I really appreciate it.
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