billc
New Member
Posts: 36
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Post by billc on Apr 6, 2022 19:12:13 GMT -5
In our muzzle loaders we have many options for ignition systems -- 209, LRMP, HIS, DI and various bushing sizes. Can anyone summarize the pressure generation by each system? By this I mean, if a bullet with x grains of powder y generates z psi of pressure with a 209/0.030 ignition, how much of a decrease or increase in powder is required to generate the same pressure with a different ignition system? While I understand there is not a direct conversion factor is there some sanity check that keeps fingers attached to one's hands?
My interest stems from loads that members have shared, but utilize a different ignition system. Thanks for any thoughts and insights.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 7, 2022 10:02:32 GMT -5
This is a hard question to answer the way you want it answered but here’s some advice.
Go with jeff Hankins system for 209/HIS/Direct. It can handle pressure with less wear than the ASG and I’ve had both. .035 tungsten bushings seem to be the best size for the 209/HIS but I have used .030 in the 209 several years ago with good results. I had best results with the 209 primers when I crush fit them while closing the bolt on bolt guns - this sealed the plug reliably and stopped gas cutting from ruining a plug in a short period of time. You can get into pressure with a 209 primer and it won’t handle it as well as pressure on a HIS. Why- because it doesn’t have the support at the base like the brass HIS.
I still have a muzzy with 209 and love it- but I know it’s limits. I have friends that are very happy with 209 and shoot high speeds but bulge the primers on some shots.
HIS you can get standard or hardened modules. The hardened can handle more pressure if your looking for higher speeds - for longer life on the modules.
Direct Ignition is likely the best for the highest speeds and pressures but you can ruin a barrel easier with it because the system can handle 60,000 psi and a thin barrel might bulge at those pressures for example.
If you have a load worked out for HIS - reduce 10-15% if you run direct. direct has a .080 flame channel and your powder sits right on top of your primer.
As far as primers go in either direct or HIS.
My testing has shown 30fps average increase using magnums vs standard primers. I’m not sure what those numbers are for PSI. Shorter barrels seem to benefit more using magnums in my testing.
I prefer direct in my heavily built high speed muzzies but the HIS is really close for speeds and is much faster when hunting compared to direct.
For highest speeds I’d go direct. For hunting and 99% of everything else I’d go HIS. That’s just my opinion. If you already have a 209 and want the best 209 get Hankins setup.
Lastly - Give Jeff a call with questions. He developed the systems except the direct that he gives credit to the guy that started it - who else is that honest these days ? He’s tested and can give you the best advice on bushing sizes.
Best of luck. Always start low on loads and watch for signs of pressure especially with the smaller diameter barrels on break actions.
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Post by joelmoney on Apr 7, 2022 12:48:20 GMT -5
It was not asked for but I will add. I think DI has quicker bullet obturation.
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billc
New Member
Posts: 36
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Post by billc on Apr 7, 2022 17:30:20 GMT -5
Ballistic and Joelmoney, Thank you for the replies.
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Post by hillbill on Apr 7, 2022 19:57:00 GMT -5
Not a good definitive answer to your question but
209 primers generally produce lower speeds and pressures than HIS with LMRP, how much? no good answer.
Direct Ignition is somewhat hotter still, why? no bushing to restrict flame to powder and a large flame path.
As far as bushing size goes??
The larger the hole the higher the speed/pressure, most use a .030-.040 size bushing, I use .035 and have for many years with good results.
Dig back through posts and pressure traces and you will get a very good idea of what you need to be shooting, better yet make a post letting members know what the specifics of your rig are and what you plan to do with it, you will get sound advice.
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Post by ultimtepredator on Apr 7, 2022 20:59:16 GMT -5
I just went through and experienced the bushing issue as far as velocity goes bill spoke of, my bushing I took out had opened up to .040 approximately.had been shooting pretty good and good velocity, change to a new .035 and lost 56 FPS causing groups to open up .. raised powder charges to match velocity before & the groups Closed back up..
Probably will switch to DI after the challenge
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billc
New Member
Posts: 36
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Post by billc on Apr 8, 2022 12:33:12 GMT -5
Not a good definitive answer to your question but 209 primers generally produce lower speeds and pressures than HIS with LMRP, how much? no good answer. Direct Ignition is somewhat hotter still, why? no bushing to restrict flame to powder and a large flame path. As far as bushing size goes?? The larger the hole the higher the speed/pressure, most use a .030-.040 size bushing, I use .035 and have for many years with good results. Dig back through posts and pressure traces and you will get a very good idea of what you need to be shooting, better yet make a post letting members know what the specifics of your rig are and what you plan to do with it, you will get sound advice. Thank you. I think I can work with this answer assuming the standard "your milage may vary, start low and work up carefully" cautions necessary with our sport. I have been digging through posts and traces, but I find less info for 40s than I did when I started the same quest for a 45. I am building a 700ML remage 40 cal with 209 ignition and 0.030 bushing for deer hunting. I hate speaking generalities on a subject I'm very OCD on, so hopefully I don't mis-speak your post, but a LRMP load/trace that meets my pressure/velocity/powder/bullet/etc goals should be in the same neighborhood for a 209 system? |
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Post by hillbill on Apr 8, 2022 19:16:17 GMT -5
No it will be lower velocity and pressure, I just don't know how much lower to tell you.
Just a recommendation, get an idea of which bullet you are interested in and then do a post asking for info on that specific bullet weight, you will get much more specific answers on where to start.
Give barrel diameter, length, breech plug design and specific bullet.
There are so many variables that only then can we give you an idea, keep in mind the .40 bore is a different animal than the .45.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 8, 2022 19:25:34 GMT -5
Not a good definitive answer to your question but 209 primers generally produce lower speeds and pressures than HIS with LMRP, how much? no good answer. Direct Ignition is somewhat hotter still, why? no bushing to restrict flame to powder and a large flame path. As far as bushing size goes?? The larger the hole the higher the speed/pressure, most use a .030-.040 size bushing, I use .035 and have for many years with good results. Dig back through posts and pressure traces and you will get a very good idea of what you need to be shooting, better yet make a post letting members know what the specifics of your rig are and what you plan to do with it, you will get sound advice. Thank you. I think I can work with this answer assuming the standard "your milage may vary, start low and work up carefully" cautions necessary with our sport. I have been digging through posts and traces, but I find less info for 40s than I did when I started the same quest for a 45. I am building a 700ML remage 40 cal with 209 ignition and 0.030 bushing for deer hunting. I hate speaking generalities on a subject I'm very OCD on, so hopefully I don't mis-speak your post, but a LRMP load/trace that meets my pressure/velocity/powder/bullet/etc goals should be in the same neighborhood for a 209 system? I’m not sure if your going to be shooting smokeless or blackhorn 209 -keep in mind that you can get into pressure with both. As Hillbill said the 209 ignition is (generally slower) speeds. To keep the 209 safe you need to mic the spent primers after you’ve shot them. Mic them in the area that’s (normally the last 1/4 towards the base) not fully supported. When you can mic and pic this up (preferably before bulging) that’s where you know your limits or are getting close to your limits and then back off the charge 5 grains on smokeless and 10 grains by weight on blackhorn 209. You will loose 100 fps by doing the above but should never have an issue with over pressure on the 209 primers if you have a hard to load or a high temp day. With lighter bullets for deer you will still have some impressive fast speeds with the 209 primers. My friends that bulge primers have also blown primers and it’s just not worth it. They have also gas cut (enlarged) the tungsten bushings in 1 shot and that led to more pressure on the next shot -Not recommended. Also remage barrels are only a hair over 1” so extra amounts of pressure can bulge the barrel or worse- so proceed with caution. If you can list more info on your barrel length and what bullets your planning on using and what plug -members can help you out. Longer barrels are harder on 209 ignitions and tungsten bushings. I hope you have a Hankins plug……… |
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Post by hillbill on Apr 8, 2022 19:37:04 GMT -5
Also keep in mind if you are using the ASG 209 plug design keep the flame channel drilled out clean, when it carbons up and gets smaller you will see more primer bulging and pressure issues.
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billc
New Member
Posts: 36
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Post by billc on Apr 8, 2022 23:11:16 GMT -5
No it will be lower velocity and pressure, I just don't know how much lower to tell you. Just a recommendation, get an idea of which bullet you are interested in and then do a post asking for info on that specific bullet weight, you will get much more specific answers on where to start. Give barrel diameter, length, breech plug design and specific bullet. There are so many variables that only then can we give you an idea, keep in mind the .40 bore is a different animal than the .45. Much better stated than I did! I will continue drilling down through the posts to be better able to formulate questions. As you suggest I will be posting later with specific details. |
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Post by sew on Apr 9, 2022 12:47:10 GMT -5
Bill,
Welcome. I have both HIS and DI for both of my modern 40s.
I use DI exclusively now. Why? Never a changing flame in to the powder charge. Faster ignition. Shorter , more consistent obturation (I think). Uses less powder/more efficient. I’ll put up with the loading disadvantage to gain these qualities. The rifles are for hunting.
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Post by ballistic on Apr 9, 2022 13:46:16 GMT -5
I agree with you on the direct ignition as being the best especially in sub .45 calibers. I just think it’s too much for most shooters that want to take the easier route. That route is HIS and it works pretty darn well. With that being said -I personally use the direct in my .40 and .416 and have a plug for my .45 that I hardly shoot anymore. My next break action (maybe a .40 cal) will be setup for both HIS and direct and will likely run the direct. I have really no advice for a .209 primer on a .40 cal. My heavy built .40 is pretty hard on primer pockets on the HIS -and the direct hold up better if I flatten primers. I think a duplex load with lighter bullets will likely work with a 209 primer- but bulging is likely  ? Some states out west will only allow 209 primers and not large rifle primer setups so you have to make it work. I was there with the original savage plugs with vent liners and then the tungsten bushings. The HIS is a huge improvement from those days and works for the needs of most shooters really well. Is it the best for the .40 cal ? Some shooters would say yes. I prefer the direct in my .40 just like you and for the same reasons. Would like to hear who’s shooting 209 primers in their .40,s with good results and not bulging or blowing the primers up ……… |
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Post by sew on Apr 9, 2022 15:40:47 GMT -5
I’ll post later, but my 10ML2/40 PN/RB 209 BP now with bushings is well sub-MOA thru 300 yards. That’s with 225g AM. That’s 6VV110/65 Vgt, 2800-2810. Safe in mine, yours?
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Post by hunter on Apr 9, 2022 16:14:43 GMT -5
ballistic,
I shoot 53 gr of 4198, 225 gr bullet and 209 primer in my 22" 700ml with .40 pacnor barrel and savage style breach plug and .30 bushing
Also shoot 56 gr of 4198 under a 200 gr bullet in my 24" mcgowan .40 barrel with same set up.
I have no issues with either
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Post by buckeye68 on Apr 9, 2022 18:04:38 GMT -5
If your building a SML why would you choose the 209 ignition system over a large rifle primer or a large magnum rifle primer in HSI or a DI ignition system?
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Post by ballistic on Apr 9, 2022 19:14:10 GMT -5
If your building a SML why would you choose the 209 ignition system over a large rifle primer or a large magnum rifle primer in HSI or a DI ignition system? I agree with you. Billc is building a .40 encore and using 209 primer for ignition for deer hunting. He may or not have to hunt in 1 of the western states that will allow a 209 ignition but not the HIS or direct. I’ve used the 209 with tungsten in a .416 that would likely be similar to the .408 but not in this (.408) caliber. My results with the .416 were bulged and blown primers until I slowed it down a lot. I switched to HIS and then to direct on that setup. I’m curious what has worked for some of the guys that have been using 209,s in there (.408) encores or CVA,s as they are pretty close. I would never expect to get the performance that you would get with the HIS or direct - but with lighter bullets I believe pretty decent speeds are possible with the 209 primers. Another question is smooth bullets and swelling the bullet into the lands as it is likely harder to do this with a 209 ignition on a .40 caliber ? I’m guessing duplex loads and/or faster powders and lighter bullets ? So post your data - will look forward to it. |
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