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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2022 17:57:46 GMT -5
I have been working with the CVA Hunter 44 cal that Hank built for me, with cast bullets, and although the results have been promising and good enough for my type of deer hunting which is very close range, I wanted to take it to the max to see just what kind of accuracy its capable of. I have tried lube groove bullets and the results were ok but nothing to rave about. Then I moved to Lee Alox and Carnuba wax rolled bullets...they were good enough for my hunting purposes but I wanted to go further. Today I went to the range and tried out some paper patched bullets. I cleaned the bore thoroughly and then fired 5 fouling shots not paying much attention to accuracy, and then let the barrel go dead cold. I only have a 50 yard range but I was really impressed with the first results! The PP bullets went down the bore with ease shot after shot and there was no lead fouling at all. The BHN of the bullets is 9 and that is pretty soft considering they are traveling at 2300 fps....they would be a dynamite expanding bullet for thin skinned game. If this works out, and there is still more to do....this old technology in a modern SML seems to work. My buddy is trying to talk me into testing powder coated bullets as well so I might give that a try in the future, but so far the PP bullets are the winner. The three shot group from a fouled dead cold barrel was .600 horizontal x .250 vertical. Not a bad place to start. Just wish my eyes were better so I could shoot better but I am pleased with the results so far.
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Post by 71yella on Jan 12, 2022 18:12:18 GMT -5
Flat, i use powder coated cast bullets in 9mm and 45acp for defensive pistol matches and they are night and day cleaner than lubed cast. I cast with scrap lead and coat then size with a lee sizer die.of course these are really slow compared to a rifle but definitely worth a try. Go to powder by the pound website, lots of choices.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2022 18:38:28 GMT -5
My buddy that wants me to try them said he would do it for me. He gets his powder from the same place and says theirs is the best. I might give it a shot....the lead fouling has not been an issue in the SML regardless of lube method so I am wondering whether the PC will be accurate...more so than what I have tried so far.
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Post by 71yella on Jan 12, 2022 18:58:04 GMT -5
It should give you just a little more bite on the rifling, my pistol bullets shoot as well as fmj rounds at normal pistol ranges.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 12, 2022 20:55:37 GMT -5
I am wondering how much it limits BHN. There are folks that have proved that the PC process softens the alloy....I work hard to get the alloy to cast a certain BHN and dont want to lose that....really dont want to go softer than it already is. If I cast an alloy that is harder to get the BHN I want after PC...there is no way to tell what the BHN will eventually be because there is no standard for the BHN reduction When the bullet is PC'd.
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Post by 71yella on Jan 12, 2022 21:10:52 GMT -5
Water quench when he pulls them out of oven from cook time and usually brings back what may been lost.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 13, 2022 8:36:44 GMT -5
From what I have read the whole proposition is "iffy"...but, some are PC'ing at a lower oven temp and shorter time span with no reduction in BHN! They keep the oven at 240 but no higher than 250 degrees for 13 min. Their tests have shown the BHN to remain the same and the PC is just as tough and smooth as when the process is done at the higher temps for longer periods of time. I know nothing about the process but my buddy has been doing it for years and he is willing to give it a shot and test it for himself. If the low temp process works the BHN problem is solved...but will they be accurate in my SML...that is the question.
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Post by 71yella on Jan 13, 2022 9:44:59 GMT -5
I bet it will work, especially since your not shooting long distance.
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Post by dennis on Jan 13, 2022 9:53:02 GMT -5
I find it an interesting read of your venture with the sub-cal and full bore lead reduced load combo. It is a fact that deer can be killed with much less mv than what most shoot in sml's. Recoil sensitive folks may benefit from your venture.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 13, 2022 10:55:04 GMT -5
I find it an interesting read of your venture with the sub-cal and full bore lead reduced load combo. It is a fact that deer can be killed with much less mv than what most shoot in sml's. Recoil sensitive folks may benefit from your venture. A pure lead bullet, paper patched, traveling at 1750 fps, about 1550 ft lbs, (same as the 450 Black Powder Express of by gone days) will kill just about any thin skinned game...with a "hardened" bullet that same cartridge took all of Africa's large dangerous game....documented historical fact. We are "spoiled" with high pressure cartridges and huge energy levels, but are they really needed...no. I would like to do a test at lower velocities but 55 grains is the absolute minimum charge I can use in my gun (because of the long cartridge it was originally chambered for...444 Marlin) and its not accurate at all....59 grains is the minimum sweet spot in my gun for accuracy.....315 grain bullet, 2300 fps, 3600+ ft lbs....more than enough for anything in North America and Africa too. But if Hank took something like a 44 Mag or 45 LC barrel and plugged it for HIS or DIS the short chambers would allow for lighter loads, reduced recoil, and 1750 fps would be doable....I have shot and killed deer with much less...the 44 Mag handgun comes to mind.
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Post by joelmoney on Jan 13, 2022 12:36:25 GMT -5
44 chambered gun 16” barrel sounds like a mighty fine youth gun.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 14, 2022 12:23:43 GMT -5
44 chambered gun 16” barrel sounds like a mighty fine youth gun.
Start em early!!! Thats a great idea joelmoney!
My rifle with the load I use kicks but its not abusive to me. My buddy let the gun get away from him when he shot it and it dimpled his forehead...blood all over the place.....I told him it kicks...and I think he thought it cant kick no more than my black powder muzzle loader....he was wrong. The recoil of an SML even with sedate loads like I shoot rivals some of the moderately powerful cartridge rifles out there. A youth model or a modified short chamber SML for the recoil sensitive would be a great gun, and still have the power to easily take down a deer.
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Post by joelmoney on Jan 14, 2022 13:28:45 GMT -5
Daughter enjoyed shooting sabots out of my 45-70 conversation. If bullets were easier to size/get for a 44 I think I would be all over it.
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Post by flattopusa on Jan 14, 2022 14:16:37 GMT -5
Cast your own. When I started this project I had trouble finding 44 cal bullets (jacketed) as well that would be suitable for the SML. Didnt want to do sabots, and didnt want to spend the bucks to order custom made bullets, so I just reverted back to the old tried and true cast bullet. Its working out very well!
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bosby
New Member
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Post by bosby on Feb 9, 2022 13:30:48 GMT -5
Just curious which hunter caliber did you start with? If you stated already and I missed it I apologize.
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Post by flattopusa on Feb 9, 2022 14:14:16 GMT -5
Just curious which hunter caliber did you start with? If you stated already and I missed it I apologize. It was a CVA Hunter in 444 Marlin.
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bosby
New Member
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Post by bosby on Feb 9, 2022 14:20:39 GMT -5
ok thank you sir. The 45-70's are hard to find. I found more .444 Marlin and 44 Mag cva guns on gunbroker for sale and cheaper so I'll be keeping an eye on this.
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Post by olegburn on Feb 9, 2022 20:35:34 GMT -5
what happens if you gas check them? Would you be able to push it little faster without leading problem?
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Post by flattopusa on Feb 9, 2022 22:19:24 GMT -5
what happens if you gas check them? Would you be able to push it little faster without leading problem? I shoot bullet to bore bullets...cast lead bullets....they are gas checked, but, I anneal the gas checks. I also shoot paper patched bullets with gas checks. There is no leading in my rifle. I will be completing my testing next week and will make a decision on what type of lubricant, paper patching or not that I will be using and report on that. Whichever bullet shoots the smallest groups and is most consistent will be the bullet I will use.....then I will do some penetration and destructive testing with that bullet to insure that it will perform on game....I will report on that as well. I am using BHN 8-9 now at 2300 fps and it works well, but, the faster you push the bullet the harder it has to be. The bullet alloy and hardness is critical for optimum performance.
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Post by olegburn on Mar 25, 2023 23:20:36 GMT -5
Here to jumpstart the Paper Patched bullet thread- Can you tell us more on the process? I understand you size the 44 cal and PP that basically acts as a very thin sabot Can you share the particulars?
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