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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 6, 2021 21:16:03 GMT -5
In my 40 cal, Wild Bill I use H4895, wool wad and Pittman 250’s with no issues.
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Post by sew on Dec 7, 2021 15:37:38 GMT -5
Care to share your load?
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Post by sew on Dec 7, 2021 15:42:08 GMT -5
I too had issues with 4895 with the 275 accumax it worked fine with great groups and fouling was decent When I went to the 278 HC it was a no go Some would keyhole I abandoned that powder and load combo in favor of the FF 297 Hammer and RL-16 last season because I knew it worked I really believe the 278 HC Fullformed would work with the 4895 No proof but just a strong hunch 275s are doing better for me than the 278s also. I will be trying full sizing and ww’s with the obviously harder to obturate 278s. In the ultralite, I’ll also compare 225s vs 228s.
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 7, 2021 22:29:05 GMT -5
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 17, 2022 17:05:04 GMT -5
Seems to me when the bullet struggles to fully orbturate mid bore it leaks some pressure past it . The powder then falls out of its happy zone and gets dirty till the obturation recovers if ever . In several of these threads it seems to be that same story over and over again . At 402 a full form is basically a scratch to "flex here" in a 400 bore . Not enough . The harder cores complicate that . 4085 coppers full formed & annealed are a step in the right direction but struugle with obturation too loaded lighter. Id think a veggie wad or polywad would help them alot Im beginning to think a different bullet is needed in a 40 . One with 404 to 408 sizeing certainly would help both types of shooters mild and wild alike possibly with a lighter .015 jacket . The .021 jackets work as long as the bullet isnt too big or the load too light in a softer core . As for that core a middle ground may have to be explored for a 40 too . Theres just too many things that Seem on opposite ends of the spectrum that really arent i think . There IS a Common Ground there .What hunters struggle with too is as important as distance boys do . Maybe more so honestly if caliber popularity growth is wanted . Im talking seriously with a custom bullet maker about these things now . He has 400 bullets , 410s , 412s , and 416s . None as swoopy as Kyles in those sizes so bc isnt great at all . But theyre huntable and accurate Well made consistant bullets . Cheaper than Fury too . Dies are expensive from Corbin . IF he Will do it , i may be buying or partially buying/investing in dies for him , for me and y'all . We will see . Too many years have gone by with 408/416s , 392/400s and 400/408s with good people working on this to Still be Struggleing . If Sews 40 Savage is counted as "The First" thats 20 YEARS . Either a 400/ 404 or a new bullet or something has got to be a answer . Something is being overlooked . Parker is about it when it comes to a 408 bullet too for lead cored VLDs at 300gr . Lighter ones are needed too . None exist . His are too dam tough to do double duty too IMO . 416 is no different though you dont hear of many using them anymore . I got that covered but they arent real swoopy..... as yet . Even a 250 to 260 bc id guess and 250gr and a 275gr is a START , and They Didnt Exist Before ......cant wait till Nostalgia is done and i got a Swinglock FF for it ....... I never was a shoulder shooter anyway .
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Post by hillbill on Sept 18, 2022 8:56:12 GMT -5
Bob Whatever the problem I'm sure you will solve it, gotta get a gun and get out of the house and shoot it though.
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 18, 2022 12:48:26 GMT -5
You need a new crystal ball Hillbill . But youre welcome to believe whatever you like .
What i posted on this "40 discussion board" as its named was an opinion . Yet it draws this sort of reply rather than discussion . Yet ive asked a direct question a few times and thats ignored ?? Im sure others may like to know the answer too ?? Why is that Hillbill ?? It was a pertinent question i believe you know the answer to yet its not forthcoming . I thought moderators were supposed to help us ?? Why has this been a apparent issue ?? Who has decided to make it one ?? Is this the right thing to do ?? Is attempting to insult me the proper way to conduct oneself ?? A board is formed for activity but only for some ?? Days go by and no posts or new threads but to try to promote chatter is wrong ??
Please do tell the answers to these questions . Im just at a loss why these things are so ?? Ive addressed you directly i believe 2 timrs as of late . Once you didnt understand or know about bh209 because you "arent a blackhorn guy" so i shared with you . I even tried to Relate That to uou . The other was a old question that i re-asked about a slotted bolt face . Now i recieve this here back . HUH ?? Just Awesome .
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Post by hillbill on Sept 18, 2022 15:15:26 GMT -5
Bob you have been away for a year now and all the sudden you are back like gangbusters posting on every single post with the appearance of being in the know with these long elaborate posts with an answer for everything. Question, do you even own one of these guns? have you ever fired one? How many shots down range? Ever fire a .40 cal or size any bullets for one? Or even a .45 for that matter? What is it exactly that you want to know? your posts are so long I get lost in them.
I definitely don't know lots of things in our world, that's why you don't see me post an answer to everything, I can spend lots of time behind the key board like some and APPEAR to know stuff but unless you have practical experience and know by having done it most times I find it best to let those that do know and have done answer the questions.
Post some pictures and results for all to see and your credibility will be elevated. For those that think I'm being a bit harsh I apologize, I just don't want someone to get misled and possibly get hurt in the process. I mean no offense toward you Bob, I'm sure you are a great guy and have good intentions, let's see some real world results. and all will be well.
Not a Blackhorn guy, yep that's me, I do know that using a wool wad is needed with the stuff, I have shot it in others guns, not in mine but I do know getting a good seal is more important than worrying about crushing the powder.
What other questions do you have Bob and we will answer them if we can? Whenever Jeff wants to retire me as a Mod I will be good with that, in the meantime I will keep doing what I have done for the last several years, so far I have offended very few I hope, If I have been wrong by saying what I have I apologize, maybe I'm just getting old and thin skinned.
Bottom line is the .40 caliber will never be easy like the .45s due to bore size, I have done as much .40 testing as anyone out there, especially with 275 s and up in weight
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Post by Hank on Sept 18, 2022 17:00:54 GMT -5
A few things to be said here.
1. Bill, you ain't going anywhere as a moderator, our board is #1 on the internet for not having problems and we very seldom need or have to delete post. 2. Moderators on this board are supposed to question post that don't sound right, or are questionable, or contains mis-leading information. That is what we do, if a moderator questions you, please don't get offended by it, because we have been there and done that before, if it sounds to good to be true, we know it probably is. 3. Bob/sideshow, perhaps you can read your post before posting and see how they sound, sometimes this is the best thing to do, if the post sounds a little cocky or big headed, re-word it to be read less offensive. Don't be telling people they need a new crystal ball. That will get you booted from this forum real fast. Bill is correct about your post, I read them and get lost in them sometimes, so maybe make smaller post, question specific and stay on topic. All of us here appreciates other members contributions, we enjoy reading their experiences and successful endeavors, if you have something to say, we all want to hear about it, just write it in a way that don't make you sound like you are the only one that knows about smokeless muzzle loading. I invited a bunch of those guys to the Kentucky challenge once, and none of them showed up. 4. I have a lot to do, I read every post that is put on this board, I do not have the time to respond to every comment, nor do I want to. Some things are just out of my wheelhouse, I also don't want to be moving post or deleting post, or banning members, this is the best board on the internet for getting good information on smokeless muzzle loading, or muzzle loading in general. Let's try to keep it that way. 5. Everyone is invited to come to the Kentucky challenge, bring your experience and your guns to the shoot and this is where you can put your money where your mouth is. 6. Let's all try to get along, this is a great big world, but our love for smokeless muzzle loading is small.
Jeff Hankins.
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 18, 2022 18:34:52 GMT -5
Jeff i dont think how hillbill spoke to me first was appropriate . I didnt deserve that either . Nor should i be told to get a gun and get out of the house . Im sorry sir but thats simply wrong . I was well aware that sockethead didnt use a wad . I offered what i feel is a better choice for bh209 in a veggie wad or a polywad . Suddenly thats a problem because i offered finer points of bh209 as well ?? I felt my explaination to hillbill was very much appropriate and even backed by a recent win . The idea i have to prove myself to another by their standards For me is a interesting concept . I dont even understand the procedure to post pics to defend what ive said or whatever has ruffled feathers here . Im honestly amazed by this today but not suprised either . Jeff ive supported you and your products and purchased them . I admire the skill you you pocess too . But i mentioned a recoil pad thats growing popular and that was found wrong too . What pad you sell never crossed my mind . That thread also has many that werent thinking about that . It was just a talk about recoil pads . Ive also asked about sloting a bolt face several times with no replys . Not even no i dont know who offers that service . I hoped you did . Thats been neither verified as yes Jeff does that or no he doesnt . Or who does . Simple question should have a simple answer not multiple ignores . Im truly sorry this is seen as ok too .
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Post by hillbill on Sept 18, 2022 20:09:04 GMT -5
As far as I know there is no one that will slot a boltface for you, unless it's a .223 size head it first has to be welded up and then fly cut. having done many they are a pain to do but it works well in the end.
I'm sorry you felt slighted but Bob you just came back from a suspension and again you are dominating the posts by commenting on everything that hits the screen, am I the only one that that feels like you want to dominate each and every thread? No one here does that, not the mods or anyone else, Jeff don't even do that and it's his board.
I don't spend nearly as much time here as I need to or as I once did, life gets in the way, the mods here don't get paid or compensated in any way nor should we. I think if you go back and look over the years most things have been handled appropriately, we try to be fair to everyone including you. . Do we have all the answers? NO but we try to answer to what we know and have experience with, that's the key here Bob, EXPERIENCE. I don't go over to Modern Muzzleloading and act like I have all the answers, I haven't fired a regular muzzleloader in years, If I did they would kick my butt off in a heartbeat and rightfully so.
Likewise don't come to Hank's and answer every post like you have all the knowledge when you have little to no experience, we can gain an immense knowledge base by reading on all the forums but knowledge is only mind clutter unless it's put into practice. We have a collaboration of a lot of the best SML Guys currently in existence here, that's what makes this board unique, and by the way I don't consider myself to be one of them.
Again, If you feel offended I hope you accept my sincere apology, I am done with this conversation.
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Post by sockethead on Sept 18, 2022 23:57:55 GMT -5
I wanted to make a comment on the subject of scope levels. I use them on all my long range rifles and I think they're important when shooting beyond about 600 yards. I don't believe they make much difference inside 400. With some simple geometry you can see exactly how much of an effect a canted scope will have on your windage. For example, at 300 yards these bullets are dropping roughly 24" from the bore's centerline. If you take a 24" stick, put one end on the ground, and cant it a few degrees you'll see how much the top of the stick moves left or right compared to the angle of the stick. That's your error when canting the scope. It's easy to see that you'd have to cant the scope quite a bit for this to have a major effect. Of course as the stick gets longer the effect is amplified.
My suspicion about the original post is that a velocity spread could cause the groups to open up at longer distances. Bullet fit, temperature, wads, and other factors can affect velocity from shot to shot. Case in point, I have a 270 WSM that shoots consistently under 1" groups at 200 yards. I used to get occasional poor accuracy that I couldn't figure out, until I realized it always happened when it was hot weather. My load of Retumbo was close to max, and the warmer temps would cause it to pressure spike and wreck my accuracy. If you're shooting 3 shots at 100, then 3 at 200, than 3 more at 300 it's possible your barrel is getting warm and affecting the powder's burn rate. Or you could have fouling. Maybe next time try shooting the 300 yard group first. And try chronographing everything to see if velocities stay consistent.
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Post by hillbill on Sept 19, 2022 3:51:07 GMT -5
JMO but I use a level on any SML I have that I plan to shoot more than 200 yds with. In my experience shooting in competitions and long range plinking it does make a sizable difference in group size. I'm not good enough to keep the gun consistent on my own and most times I shoot out of bags so a wide flat forend and leveled front rest are nonexistent.
In the field under stress things get amplified, I have trained myself to always look at my level while in the scope, level devices used and placement on the scope are critical to be user friendly. Personally I use Holland levels placed between the side focus knob and the front ring, they are high enough to be clearly seen above the knob and my old eyes can focus on it easily.
others preference will vary widely but in the end one must use what works best for them.
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Post by Hank on Sept 19, 2022 7:10:00 GMT -5
Jeff i dont think how hillbill spoke to me first was appropriate . I didnt deserve that either . Nor should i be told to get a gun and get out of the house . Im sorry sir but thats simply wrong . I was well aware that sockethead didnt use a wad . I offered what i feel is a better choice for bh209 in a veggie wad or a polywad . Suddenly thats a problem because i offered finer points of bh209 as well ?? I felt my explaination to hillbill was very much appropriate and even backed by a recent win . The idea i have to prove myself to another by their standards For me is a interesting concept . I dont even understand the procedure to post pics to defend what ive said or whatever has ruffled feathers here . Im honestly amazed by this today but not suprised either . Jeff ive supported you and your products and purchased them . I admire the skill you you pocess too . But i mentioned a recoil pad thats growing popular and that was found wrong too . What pad you sell never crossed my mind . That thread also has many that werent thinking about that . It was just a talk about recoil pads . Ive also asked about sloting a bolt face several times with no replys . Not even no i dont know who offers that service . I hoped you did . Thats been neither verified as yes Jeff does that or no he doesnt . Or who does . Simple question should have a simple answer not multiple ignores . Im truly sorry this is seen as ok too . OK, so, no one is here to offend anyone intentionally. However sometimes the post is read wrong because of the words the OP chooses to use. So, try to choose words wisely. I do have to ask you? Do you have a smokeless muzzle loader, and have you shot these guns with Blackhorn 209 powder? There is a thread under the hillbill how too's that explains how to post pictures on this site. Perhaps you can find it and read up on how to do this. It is real easy. If you can't find it I will make a new post explaining how it is done. As for the recoil pad post. I personally don't think it’s a good idea to promote a product that you have never used, nor even seen on another gun. What if we have 5 members go out and buy one of these pads and it turns out to be a POS. Then there are 5 members that will be pissed at you and never take anything else you ever say as good information. So as a valuable contributor to this message board, post only factual information, information you can personally say you have experienced, products that you have actually used with good results. I have been in business and lived long enough to know that a lot of products sound good when you read the advertising print, but when you actually get it in hand it is junk. On to the bolt slotting question. Like I said in a previous post, I read all post, I cannot reply to all of them as I have a full-time job working in my shop 80 plus hours a week. So if you ask a question and I don't answer it there could be a couple reasons why. Like Hillbill said, it takes a lot of work, tools, machinery and skill to weld up a bolt face and machine it back to a usable piece, Have I done it?, yes, several times, have I ever slotted one for use with my modules?, no I have not. The reason most smiths will not do it is because of the time it would take. To do this job properly, without any distractions in the shop I would estimate it to be a 4-hour job, so at a shop labor rate of $85.00 an hour we are at a cost of $336.00 to do that job. You said you can buy a completely new bolt for $400.00. This in my book is a no brainer. Buy the new bolt, and rest assured that you will not have any problems with it. The reason I did not answer the question the first time is: I have a website, two of them to be exact: All my services are listed on the website and bolt head slotting is not one of them, so with a little research (you're good at researching, cause I saw where you posted the weight of every action you could find on the internet) you could answer your own question, and for a last resort, you could call the shop and talk directly with me for an answer. Another reason your questions may go unanswered is because you have so many of them. I know you’ve heard the story about the little boy that cried wolf. Wolf, wolf, the little boy cried, everyone came running to find, no wolf. Next day the little boy cried, Wolf, wolf, everyone came running to find no wolf, so after several days of this the people stopped coming to the boys’ cries for help. Then one day the boy cried out, WOLF, WOLF, WOLF, PLEASE HELP ME, WOLF, WOLF. The people were so sure the boy was just seeking attention that they did not come to the boys’ cries. So now lets all just try to get along, read everyone’s post with an open mind and keep this board a place for learning and sharing real world experiences. Thanks Jeff Hankins.
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Post by sew on Sept 19, 2022 9:49:01 GMT -5
BACK TO THE THREAD STARTER🙂
Using a scope level is virtually mandatory. Major error on my part.
All shots were chronographed. Slowly the velocity climbed. When they reached 2780, I wire brushed, and they dropped back down ~10’/sec.
Unless, I have pretty high initial obturating pressure, the hard cores I’ve used (228/278 in 40s and 303 in my 45) do not group as well as the regular cores. These ARE hard cores. I get exit holes with these and generally not with my lower weighted regular cores (225 in 40 and 275 in 45). Getting the hard cores to approach the accuracy of the softer cores takes a different load for me. However, I’m shooting lighter loads than many on this board. I often use the bandaid of a wad to help this.
Higher pressure always seems to help accuracy in my experience. My vintage 10ML2/40 PN/209 shooting the 225 AM at 2950 using a duplex of VV110/Varget is a ragged hole @100, cloverleaf @200 and 1-2” @300 (likely due to my deficient shooting skills and , yep, no level - previously).
My insistence of making H4895 work has not helped. I’ll try hotter loads and if that’ll help. However, I’ll be using QL to help find better loads for what I’m after. If others have not found good, clean 40 cal loads for 4895, I’ll likely not either.
You 45 shooters, I may have a special deal on a new, unopened 8# H4895 container plus a few 1# jugs also.
Thank all of you for your help.
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Post by dannoboone on Sept 19, 2022 12:47:26 GMT -5
A bit off the starter thread, but scope levels have creped into this thread. For those who are not using a level, use targets with heavy horizontal lines, then level on those lines when setting up the target. It's pretty easy to see the horizontal line of the X-hairs line up with the target lines. Doesn't help any out in the field when hunting long distance, but many of us rarely, if ever, get a shot over 100 yards.
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Post by hillbill on Sept 19, 2022 16:19:27 GMT -5
A lot of guys don't need or want to use a level, I would never use one if I planned to shoot less than 200 yards. several years ago I started using them out of necessity trying to shoot smaller groups with these cannons we play with, Yes it did help somewhat, how much? I think considerably.
Last year when Kyle and I were in Colorado I got the opportunity to shoot antelope well past 500 yds with both my big .40 and my hunting weight .45, the big gun from a bag lying on the ground and the .45 from a bipod eating dirt as well. I feel almost positive that without the aid of the scope level I would have failed miserably, that's how much confidence I now have in a good level.
Back to .40 cal bullet obturation: Steve has a good point when talking .40 stuff, it's all about swelling the bullet, be it light or heavy, the heavier the bullet, the harder it is to swell, the harder the bullet the same principle.
I still believe anything smaller than .45 caliber is a real task to get to do exactly what we want, can they shoot small? you bet they can but it takes a good bit of homework to make it happen. Anyone that owns one will attest to the same.
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 21, 2022 4:03:11 GMT -5
Yes Hank i do have these guns . 2 and working on a 3rd . My 45 that was Sent to me Sew graciously offered to post the pics . Its a ASG gun . Yet here i was . Where i live bh209 is mandatory to use during mz season . In a 45 the velocity isnt all that . Neither is ES . tremendous amounts of work has gone into that research to better the results . While wool wads worked my tests Proved veggies or polywads Far Better . No Contest . For some a wool wad wont even support ignition with bh209 , just so you know it now . The modual ignition made it possible to shoot wadless period IMO . But thinking packing bh209 is useless is dictionary ignorance , i.e. Not Knowing The Facts . If your not required to use bh209 during mz season youre lucky . Many Do . Bh209 will never equal smokless loads in the 45 . But in the 40 much higher velocity is achieved . Thats pretty obvious even by CVA Paramounts results . The smokless loads to match that velocity arent a problem either in a 40 . Your seeing Wolf one way i see it from a completely different vantage point . A wolf is a preditor that has a tendacy to attack , sometimes for the sheer joy of it . Nor is "domination" being active . Thats nonsense . I came back today only to address this on here . This has gotten old . Many times in life we buy products not knowing the outcome or if we will be pleased . $25 isnt much of a gamble either . To each their own . Some here dont use a Pachmyer and are happy with our choice . Pierce agreed with me incidently that a magnum modual would work no welding required . If im guilty of anything here its been about wanting to be helpfull and being active . If i have questions dont you consider another may too and wont ask ?? Incidently a sticky put up on barrel contours and calibers with listed loads would be prudent so guys know what to do with their purchases safely . Trying to pacify a guy wanting to know what the limitations of his new barrel was untill somebody could or would help him also has got me previously scolded . How lovely . As for that suspention i also extended it myself Billy for 11 more months . I didnt set on my hands either . I was Directed Back for/ because of elkman 1310 . His idea ^^^ . Personally i wouldnt wrestle with that . Some do . Incidently Kyle was also asked about 408s and/or help with the dies to make them a year ago . Its not like i havent tried . Getting along would indeed be nice in the future . Whenever that is occasionally to do that one day again to say hello . There are some , really good fellows here .
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Post by ballistic on Sept 21, 2022 11:31:47 GMT -5
Gents As has been said many a time -these 40,s are picky. The idea of different sized bullets to help with possible full sizing is a great idea that has been talked about before. I’ve tried full sizing from Kyle’s bullets and I’m either not skilled enough or don’t have the patience to make it work. Hillbill has great results full forming and I just can’t get it right and I have over 30 years experience - go figure -lol. With smooth sizing Kyle’s bullets have all worked really well. But………. Once you find a magic combo - you better test it across a wide temp range and include humidity and dry conditions. If you don’t it won’t be magic. My magic combo was challenged a few days ago A fed 215m primer was (substituted) used and 2 grains less powder with the same pitman 325 aeromax. Loading was miserable and required a hammer to get down the barrel. After brushing the barrel 25 times (and getting 500% more fouling crud than normal)-the original wlr (Winchester large rifle) primers were used with the extra 2 grains of powder. The magic combo was back with easy loading with 2 fingers pressure. It took what I counted as just over 400 shots to find the magic combo and then another 100 to confirm it was the real deal. With the primer and component shortage -I tried something different and had to go back to what has worked well. Some have much better luck than I with several combos that work well. My advice for someone new to .40,s is to have some patience and expect to try several combos. Search through the threads to get some good starting points on combos that have worked well. Kyle Pitmans bullets aeromax from 275-350 are all shooting really well smooth sized for me.
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Post by hillbill on Sept 21, 2022 12:23:08 GMT -5
I won’t even reply to Bobs post, done with that.
Yes the .40 is a different beast. The light bullets seem easier to swell but the heavier one not so much. Powders act weird in that at a certain pressure range the might do fine but below and above the can be terribly dirty. If one likes to tinker the .40 is your baby for sure.
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