|
Post by mike on Dec 6, 2022 19:44:16 GMT -5
I'm thinking the message string got way off original topic and should have gone private before reporting the forum to law-enforcement. JMO
|
|
|
Post by jeepeater on Dec 6, 2022 23:08:01 GMT -5
Boy am I glad I live in a great state. If it loads from the muzzle and is larger than .40 caliber we get to send it. I get that there has to be laws and that they should be enforced, but there’s a lot of “law makers” that just need something better to do.
|
|
|
Post by hillbill on Dec 7, 2022 14:42:06 GMT -5
Ballistic, I am familiar with the RAC process. It should be obvious that these recommendations passed, because you can look at the current language in the proclamation and compare it to the previous wording. Of course it passed. The changes were made and are available for anyone to read. I am also aware that Blackhorn contains nitrocellulose. That is obvious and I don't need to read the MSDS sheets to figure it out. I know and understand the laws, their intent, and have no desire to exploit any gray areas or loopholes that may exist. At your request I decided to contact the Utah DWR for some clarification on this issue. To me it's already very clear, but to you and possibly a few others it may not be. Here is the applicable portion of the e-mail I sent: "There is a discussion on [this] forum about the use of smokeless powder for muzzleloader hunting in Utah. Clearly the proclamation says it's not legal. But according to some comments on the forum there have been DWR employees and/or Conservation Officers that are telling people it's okay to use. More specifically they are reportedly saying that the DWR will not check this, nor will they prosecute anyone for using smokeless while muzzleloading"
Here is the response I received from Amy Canning, communication specialist for the DWR:
"I followed up with Capt. Chad Bettridge in reference to your email. Chad is part of our law enforcement leadership. He indicated that smokeless gunpowder is illegal, and we will enforce the law if a person is found to be using it.
We're not sure who might have been saying otherwise — or why — but we will follow up internally too, to make sure everyone is clear on this issue. We certainly appreciate you bringing this topic and the online discussion to our attention."
So there you have it. Smokeless is illegal, end of story.
Yes this thread has strayed so lets leave good enough alone, getting the DNR involved (drawing attention) to anything we do or discuss here might not be wise. obviously we don't advocate breaking the law but the last thing we need is for official's from any state agency looking at what we do with a magnifying glass. Back to topic please Gentlemen!
|
|
|
Post by SURESHOT on Dec 7, 2022 15:55:19 GMT -5
somethings should just be left alone!! IMO
|
|
|
Post by tekan1 on Dec 30, 2022 12:25:20 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I am hoping someone with more powder experience than myself can provide a explanation and advice on a safety issue me and my hunting buddy are having.
My buddy Bill uses .49grains of IMR 4198 in his Stainless TC Endeavor muzzleloader. Has for years now and this was passed down from his dad also. I've argued to no avail, that it's unsafe.
His remarks are that the pressure of 150grains of tripple 7 is way more than the .49 grains of IMR. Plus the barrel is much cleaner afterwards and less smoke.
It's not the pressure but the burn rate/expansion of the IMR I've argued. He's as stubborn as a mule but I'm trying to avoid a catastrophe and him sustaining a serious injury.
Personally, I like the blackhorn 209 in .80 grains but he's against it.
I want to show him this thread once you all chime in.
Thank you all
|
|
|
Post by sew on Dec 30, 2022 17:48:13 GMT -5
Boy am I glad I live in a great state. If it loads from the muzzle and is larger than .40 caliber we get to send it. I get that there has to be laws and that they should be enforced, but there’s a lot of “law makers” that just need something better to do. One thing they could do better is to state “40 caliber and larger”.🙂
|
|
|
Post by jeepeater on Dec 30, 2022 18:37:51 GMT -5
Boy am I glad I live in a great state. If it loads from the muzzle and is larger than .40 caliber we get to send it. I get that there has to be laws and that they should be enforced, but there’s a lot of “law makers” that just need something better to do. One thing they could do better is to state “40 caliber and larger”.🙂 I think it actually does say .40 caliber and larger for rifles with at least an 18” barrel in the regulations. .45 caliber and larger for pistol with at least a 9” barrel.
|
|
|
Post by sew on Dec 30, 2022 19:17:45 GMT -5
Good. Are you in Arkansas?
In Arkansas, large game can be hunted with 40 and up; and small game, fur bearers and predators can be hunted with not larger than 40 cal. So, a 40 is a do all MLer. Arkansas has some really good MLer laws.
|
|
|
Post by jeepeater on Dec 31, 2022 1:08:57 GMT -5
Good. Are you in Arkansas? In Arkansas, large game can be hunted with 40 and up; and small game, fur bearers and predators can be hunted with not larger than 40 cal. So, a 40 is a do all MLer. Arkansas has some really good MLer laws. Yes sir, I’m in Southwest Arkansas, a little town called Gurdon just south of Arkadelphia. We do have good MLer laws, no doubt.
|
|
|
Post by jeepeater on Dec 31, 2022 1:39:07 GMT -5
Hello everyone. I am hoping someone with more powder experience than myself can provide a explanation and advice on a safety issue me and my hunting buddy are having. My buddy Bill uses .49grains of IMR 4198 in his Stainless TC Endeavor muzzleloader. Has for years now and this was passed down from his dad also. I've argued to no avail, that it's unsafe. His remarks are that the pressure of 150grains of tripple 7 is way more than the .49 grains of IMR. Plus the barrel is much cleaner afterwards and less smoke. It's not the pressure but the burn rate/expansion of the IMR I've argued. He's as stubborn as a mule but I'm trying to avoid a catastrophe and him sustaining a serious injury. Personally, I like the blackhorn 209 in .80 grains but he's against it. I want to show him this thread once you all chime in. Thank you all I would invite him here to get some insight into what actually makes smokeless muzzleloaders capable of handling the pressure. We already know that even the Savage ML 2 had flaws when pushed to the limit of both pressure and repeated firing caused gas cutting. Eventually the results can be catastrophic. Without a way to limit and contain the hot gases going back towards the breach, eventually the hole in the plug will open up and the priming system will be the weak link. What exactly will happen is hard to say, but at the least there will be leakage of gases back toward the shooter. I see it fairly often in “modern muzzleloading” groups. Some guy with a Remington “Ultimate muzzleloader” will post that he’s shooting 65 grains of H4198 with a 325 grain power belt or similar. He’ll claim it’s safe because it’s an “ultimate ml” and uses cut down rifle cases with rifle primers. Nothing good can come from it, but I’ve had no luck trying to educate. Usually don’t even get a response. Factory plug mind you, not a conversion. All you can do is try to educate your friend, maybe show some pics of failures. It’s quite chilling to see what happens when a steel barrel turns into a pipe bomb. It’s ok until it’s not, then it’s possibly tragic.
|
|
|
Post by yosemitesam on Jan 2, 2023 20:21:20 GMT -5
so here"S what New Mexico is doing to solve the smokeless revolution - scopes are banned on muzzleloaders for at least next 4 years. Smokeless still banned but as pointed out - how to verify. No biggie anymore, because in their opinion, muzzleloader hunters using smokeless will no longer be able to make those 400-500 yard shots anymore without a scope. So they have leveled the playing field and minimized the incentive to go illegal with smokeless. By the way - will someone tell me what state permits smokeless powder during muzzleloader seasons. I couldn't find a one.
|
|
|
Post by jeepeater on Jan 2, 2023 21:09:24 GMT -5
so here"S what New Mexico is doing to solve the smokeless revolution - scopes are banned on muzzleloaders for at least next 4 years. Smokeless still banned but as pointed out - how to verify. No biggie anymore, because in their opinion, muzzleloader hunters using smokeless will no longer be able to make those 400-500 yard shots anymore without a scope. So they have leveled the playing field and minimized the incentive to go illegal with smokeless. By the way - will someone tell me what state permits smokeless powder during muzzleloader seasons. I couldn't find a one. When looking at ML regs for a state you have to look to see if they specifically say no smokless. It’s kind of like gun laws, they usually tell you what you can’t use or do rather than what you can. I think Arkansas, Iowa, Indiana, Virginia, Kentucky to name a few, are smokless ML friendly. There are more, those are just what I can recall off the top of my head as I type. Lol Those regs limiting scopes won’t stop guys that are determined to take long shots. There are some really accurate iron sight setups that work well at long distances, and have been working for over 100 years. What’s sad is how many animals will be wounded because of ignorant law makers.
|
|
|
Post by sew on Jan 2, 2023 22:19:05 GMT -5
Missouri, Tennessee…
|
|
|
Post by hillbill on Jan 3, 2023 5:18:45 GMT -5
so here"S what New Mexico is doing to solve the smokeless revolution - scopes are banned on muzzleloaders for at least next 4 years. Smokeless still banned but as pointed out - how to verify. No biggie anymore, because in their opinion, muzzleloader hunters using smokeless will no longer be able to make those 400-500 yard shots anymore without a scope. So they have leveled the playing field and minimized the incentive to go illegal with smokeless. By the way - will someone tell me what state permits smokeless powder during muzzleloader seasons. I couldn't find a one. Smokeless Revolution? Didn't know such existed? Since SMLs are likely less than one percent of muzzleloader shooters in existence I doubt they passed this specifically to curb the use of smokeless.
Blackhorn 209 users far out weigh us but still banning scopes to curb long shots? That"s a double edge sword . LOTS of shooters use scopes, even the smokers.
Wounded animals from poorly placed shots with iron sights, that's a bigger issue IMO.
|
|
klook
Junior Member
Posts: 85
|
Post by klook on Jan 3, 2023 18:55:16 GMT -5
Groups of people that make up regulations generally are not people that understand the sport or pastime or have animosity towards it. I have observed this in multiple sports and pastimes I have been involved in over many years. It would seem that New Mexico's board is dominated by old school BP people. What should dominate the discussion should be kill ratio's and maintaining the herd. Trying to legislate ethics never works because people are really stupid. And if they paid big bucks to get a tag, they will take that 300yd shot with BP and open sights. The results are the same as someone shooting beyond their skills with better optical equipment they can afford but can't shoot well. Can't stop it, animals suffer, and kneejerk rules and regulations won't help. Focus on the herd and maintaining it. Rant over.......
|
|