jkmn
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by jkmn on Oct 28, 2021 12:49:29 GMT -5
Sort of new to the muzzleloading world, but curious to know the pros and cons of a traditional smokeless powder such as IMR 4198 (or others) vs Blackhorn 209. Assuming your gun is setup for either and local regulations allow both. Temp stability? Consistency in velocity? Which is easier to clean? etc?
Appreciate any feedback.
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shoop
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by shoop on Oct 28, 2021 15:54:54 GMT -5
2 totally different worlds, lots of good information here, read read and read some more
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Post by Richard on Oct 28, 2021 18:15:42 GMT -5
Use smokeless and don't look back.
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Post by hillbill on Oct 28, 2021 18:26:02 GMT -5
Blackhorn and smokeless are two different animals, both in cleanliness and velocity.
If you must use Blackhorn where you hunt it is very doable from these guns but speeds will be much slower and it will also be somewhat more nasty.
Smokeless is much easier to deal with, some go the entire season without cleaning, I am one of them.
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Oct 30, 2021 5:03:50 GMT -5
Use smokeless and don't look back. What he said. BH209 is better than T7 and Pyrodex IMO. Never shot holy black. Once you get comfortable with the differences shooting smokeless there is no going back. I shoot BH209 once a year in a Smoker just to remind myself that smokeless is the way to go if legal. I am using Remington 700 MLS conversions with Savage breechplugs and 209 Primers which have been out of vogue for a while now. They are still far superior to any Smoker IMO. One of these days I will move up to an ML with HIS or DI once Remington 700 actions become more readily available again. |
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Post by blackpowder72 on Oct 30, 2021 22:12:06 GMT -5
Smokeless all the way !! I was playing with the old 700ml the other day it didn't take me long to remember why I switched.
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 13, 2022 17:58:17 GMT -5
Some of us have to use bh209 for our muzzleloader season . Regular gun season we can use smokeless if we choose our muzzleloader to hunt with . A big plus in shotgun zones !!! These are Michigans rules . We can also legally use a 40 .
These circumstances right here make a 40 extremely practicle for both powder usages . 150grV loads of bh209 are 2700+ and so are lighter loads of smokeless able to match this velocity easily with 225 to 250gr bullets . Very practile for a hunter with rules to follow IMO . A 45 can do the same but not with as good of preformance capability . Score 1 for the 40 .
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Post by smokepolehall on Sept 13, 2022 18:44:04 GMT -5
This is one of those topic's that gleen good info. SML's for cleaning n velocity. I am not big on $52 + tax on a half pound of powder. I had rather shoot real black powder myself, my Flintlocks like it also
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Post by Sideshow on Sept 13, 2022 20:38:34 GMT -5
This is one of those topic's that gleen good info. SML's for cleaning n velocity. I am not big on $52 + tax on a half pound of powder. I had rather shoot real black powder myself, my Flintlocks like it also I can definately hear where your comeing from on that price thing bh209 is selling for today . I do think what i said though concerning a 40 and both uses as forced by law has merit . Expensive but it works good for a substitute legal black powder in the 40 for speed compared to smokeless i think . Equal high velocitys is easily done in it with both powders . Its a good match to the caliber being legal in mz season in states requireing a sub and allowing the 40 . A 45 doesnt respond the same . Besides its kinda quiet here these days....i noticed this thread and dug it up just because of that . |
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Post by ballistic on Sept 24, 2022 9:18:28 GMT -5
I live in utah where blackpowder is required for muzzleloader only hunts. You can still use a muzzleloader on an any weapon hunt and use smokeless powder. My recent .40 is setup for blackhorn 209 and also smokeless. This thread is mostly about smokeless but I’ll add some advice on blackhorn 209. You can get some really high velocities comparable to smokeless in the smaller bores and that includes .45,.416, and .408. -with the smallest giving the biggest increases. Heavier bullets in those bores will get you into pressure with slower velocities compared to smokeless. You can bulge and blow primers on HIS/ASG/209/ and direct ignition with large doses of blackhorn 209. Blackhorn 209 can have huge velocity spreads from lot to lot -worse than any smokeless powders from lot to lot. I have used blackhorn also in .50 bores and pressure can be found with really large doses of powder as well but it takes a lot more to get there -and a long barrel. I’ve tried to come up with an equivalent number (on a burn rate chart) to smokeless but have found that to be an impossible task because it burns so differently in every bore diameter. This will be controversial - but I believe blackhorn 209 is the most corrosive powder (compared to all the other black powders and substitutes) that I have tested. I hunt with a clean barrel and place a ballon over the muzzle to keep it dry. And I clean between every shot to minimize the corrosion. I have found the powder to also be very temperature sensitive with 1-2 fps increases/decreases per every degree of barrel temps.
With all the above - I still prefer blackhorn 209 over all the other blackpowders for the increases in velocities and it has always worked well on smooth bore fitted bullets. I use it when I have to on the muzzleloader only hunts in utah that require blackpowder or substitutes.
When not required - I will use smokeless every single time.
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Post by sockethead on Nov 30, 2022 22:09:20 GMT -5
I live in utah where blackpowder is required for muzzleloader only hunts. You can still use a muzzleloader on an any weapon hunt and use smokeless powder. Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I think it's important to make a correction here. In Utah it is absolutely NOT legal to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader for hunting big game, regardless of which season you are hunting in. Yes you can use a muzzy during the rifle hunt, but it still needs to meet all the requirements for a muzzleloader. In order for a rifle to be considered legal it must fire centerfire cartridges, so there is no loophole that would allow you to use a smokeless muzzleloader to take big game in Utah. |
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Post by ballistic on Nov 30, 2022 23:09:31 GMT -5
I live in utah where blackpowder is required for muzzleloader only hunts. You can still use a muzzleloader on an any weapon hunt and use smokeless powder. Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I think it's important to make a correction here. In Utah it is absolutely NOT legal to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader for hunting big game, regardless of which season you are hunting in. Yes you can use a muzzy during the rifle hunt, but it still needs to meet all the requirements for a muzzleloader. In order for a rifle to be considered legal it must fire centerfire cartridges, so there is no loophole that would allow you to use a smokeless muzzleloader to take big game in Utah. I’ve already looked into the above with the utah DWR. It is in fact a loophole. A loophole that could easily be argued that a single shot smokeless muzzleloader is a handicap compared to a centerfire rifle (during an any weapon hunt). Call the Utah DWR and get your answer. Another loophole is utahs ban on smokeless powder or additives to be used for a muzzleloader propellant -but allows blackhorn 209 - when blackhorn 209 contains some smokeless powder (look at the contents of the SDS). Another loophole that could get someone actually using smokeless powder out of trouble. My above previous statement is correct. It’s a grey area that’s opened a few loopholes. |
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 1, 2022 11:18:09 GMT -5
How would they check your muzzleloader for smokeless powder vs Blackhorn? Just asking…..
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Post by ballistic on Dec 1, 2022 13:57:43 GMT -5
How would they check your muzzleloader for smokeless powder vs Blackhorn? Just asking….. Per an officer (from the enforcement division) that I know. His comments were there is no way to know what’s actually loaded. Powders could be checked (visual) but still no way to verify what the powder actually is unless sent to a lab. He stated that wasn’t worth the divisions efforts on both accounts. Instead they are focusing on making some primitive only hunts that will basically allow caps and muskets for ignition and bore rider bullets - no sabots allowed. Muzzleloader (regular) hunts will likely still allow scopes for 2023 and the powder must be blackpowder or a substitute that doesn’t contain any smokeless powder (but can have some nitrocellulose). Blackhorn 209 is ok to use. Isn’t that completely contradictory that the powder can’t contain any smokeless -but can have some nitrocellulose  ? How do you decipher Some ? And nitrocellulose is a main ingredient in double based smokeless powders -lol I could share the SDS sheet if anyone wants it ? It is however true that smokeless powder isn’t allowed in an any weapon hunt either as written above by the previous (socket head) poster- so his statement is also correct. Utahs enforcement division isn’t looking at enforcing it on hunts either. I’m sure the law will be rewritten to exclude powders (like blackhorn 209) because of the loopholes the utah DWR presently has. As hunters we are trying to take advantage of every rule or law that’s put before us. For example: If scopes are removed on muzzleloaders - you can bet that the best of peep sights will be used for those that are taking advantage of what’s left in the law. And there will lots of wasted animals ( by those that use simple buckhorn sights) because hunters will shoot outside of their limits anyway. That’s a whole different subject than this post is really about. While scopes are still allowed - I’m going to use the best equipment for a scope that I can use - because I can. And the best barrel/stock/action/trigger /ignition system and Kyle’s bullets. |
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 1, 2022 15:12:37 GMT -5
How would they check your muzzleloader for smokeless powder vs Blackhorn? Just asking….. Per an officer (from the enforcement division) that I know. His comments were there is no way to know what’s actually loaded. Powders could be checked (visual) but still no way to verify what the powder actually is unless sent to a lab. He stated that wasn’t worth the divisions efforts on both accounts. Instead they are focusing on making some primitive only hunts that will basically allow caps and muskets for ignition and bore rider bullets - no sabots allowed. Muzzleloader (regular) hunts will likely still allow scopes for 2023 and the powder must be blackpowder or a substitute that doesn’t contain any smokeless powder (but can have some nitrocellulose). Blackhorn 209 is ok to use. Isn’t that completely contradictory that the powder can’t contain any smokeless -but can have some nitrocellulose ? How do you decipher Some ? And nitrocellulose is a main ingredient in double based smokeless powders -lol I could share the SDS sheet if anyone wants it ? It is however true that smokeless powder isn’t allowed in an any weapon hunt either as written above by the previous (socket head) poster- so his statement is also correct. Utahs enforcement division isn’t looking at enforcing it on hunts either. I’m sure the law will be rewritten to exclude powders (like blackhorn 209) because of the loopholes the utah DWR presently has. As hunters we are trying to take advantage of every rule or law that’s put before us. For example: If scopes are removed on muzzleloaders - you can bet that the best of peep sights will be used for those that are taking advantage of what’s left in the law. And there will lots of wasted animals ( by those that use simple buckhorn sights) because hunters will shoot outside of their limits anyway. That’s a whole different subject than this post is really about. While scopes are still allowed - I’m going to use the best equipment for a scope that I can use - because I can. And the best barrel/stock/action/trigger /ignition system and Kyle’s bullets. Well said…… |
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Post by sockethead on Dec 2, 2022 0:48:52 GMT -5
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I think it's important to make a correction here. In Utah it is absolutely NOT legal to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader for hunting big game, regardless of which season you are hunting in. Yes you can use a muzzy during the rifle hunt, but it still needs to meet all the requirements for a muzzleloader. In order for a rifle to be considered legal it must fire centerfire cartridges, so there is no loophole that would allow you to use a smokeless muzzleloader to take big game in Utah. I’ve already looked into the above with the utah DWR. It is in fact a loophole. A loophole that could easily be argued that a single shot smokeless muzzleloader is a handicap compared to a centerfire rifle (during an any weapon hunt). Call the Utah DWR and get your answer. Another loophole is utahs ban on smokeless powder or additives to be used for a muzzleloader propellant -but allows blackhorn 209 - when blackhorn 209 contains some smokeless powder (look at the contents of the SDS). Another loophole that could get someone actually using smokeless powder out of trouble. My above previous statement is correct. It’s a grey area that’s opened a few loopholes. Saying that you could argue a certain point in court does not make it legal. The hunting proclamation is very clear on these topics. In order to use a muzzleloader for hunting in Utah it must meet certain requirements. Those requirements are clearly stated. So if you use a muzzleloader that doesn't meet the requirements you are hunting with an illegal weapon. If you recall the previous wording of the rule on smokeless powder you would realize that they changed the verbiage to specifically ALLOW the use of Blackhorn while continuing to prohibit straight smokeless powder. Smokeless has always been illegal, and there was some confusion about using Blackhorn when it first came out. So they added the phrase about nitrocellulose to clarify things. It's not a loophole, it's a clarification. Part of the fun and challenge of hunting for me is operating within the boundaries of the law. Anyone can poach a deer, but taking one during the season with the correct equipment and proper license is a challenge. Sitting around thinking up ways to break the law and then talk your way out of it when you get caught is not ethical and does not interest me. |
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Post by ballistic on Dec 2, 2022 9:18:41 GMT -5
I’ve already looked into the above with the utah DWR. It is in fact a loophole. A loophole that could easily be argued that a single shot smokeless muzzleloader is a handicap compared to a centerfire rifle (during an any weapon hunt). Call the Utah DWR and get your answer. Another loophole is utahs ban on smokeless powder or additives to be used for a muzzleloader propellant -but allows blackhorn 209 - when blackhorn 209 contains some smokeless powder (look at the contents of the SDS). Another loophole that could get someone actually using smokeless powder out of trouble. My above previous statement is correct. It’s a grey area that’s opened a few loopholes. Saying that you could argue a certain point in court does not make it legal. The hunting proclamation is very clear on these topics. In order to use a muzzleloader for hunting in Utah it must meet certain requirements. Those requirements are clearly stated. So if you use a muzzleloader that doesn't meet the requirements you are hunting with an illegal weapon. If you recall the previous wording of the rule on smokeless powder you would realize that they changed the verbiage to specifically ALLOW the use of Blackhorn while continuing to prohibit straight smokeless powder. Smokeless has always been illegal, and there was some confusion about using Blackhorn when it first came out. So they added the phrase about nitrocellulose to clarify things. It's not a loophole, it's a clarification. Part of the fun and challenge of hunting for me is operating within the boundaries of the law. Anyone can poach a deer, but taking one during the season with the correct equipment and proper license is a challenge. Sitting around thinking up ways to break the law and then talk your way out of it when you get caught is not ethical and does not interest me. Sockethead It appears that you are a know it all in every area and an expert as well. In your post “bullets walking to the right” you are asking for advice as to why this is happening. You also claim the below quote -your words here - “I have done a lot of rifle shooting in my life and never have I seen such dramatic movement of a group when increasing distance” After receiving some great reasons from 6 different knowledgable posters with some of them being accomplished long range shooters- you discount every word of advice. Your words again below “Thanks for the replies fellas. I’m not using a scope level - but I don’t think that’s the problem” You then proceed to give your reasons as to how you are doing everything correct and those reasons (justifying just like your accusations of me justifying breaking the law) really tell the story of who you are. I’m not sure if you noticed - but I am one of those 6 that tried (keyword tried) to help you. Your (this current on smokeless being illegal) post is also correct as I have already mentioned previously - and so is mine (with a good explanation from the enforcement division). When you start to make statements about people breaking the law- you better have all the facts and law on the table. Utah DWR set up loopholes in the language of black powder substitutes that can contain “some” nitrocellulose. How you and I and others interpret this will be different and debatable. Another fact is blackhorn 209 isn’t actually listed (utah DWR proclamation) as an acceptable powder- just interpreted that it is -by most- including me. I can copy and paste and list this information by website if you want to continue this nonsense. But be prepared to answer as to why you (sockethead) are using blackhorn 209 as it’s really a smokeless powder mixed with black powder substitute's. While you’re at it -please explain the word “some” (as to the amount of nitrocellulose) as it’s written into the rule book. I can bring those articles available online as well into this discussion. Until then - keep resurrecting old posts and keep asking questions that you already have all the answers for. |
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Post by sockethead on Dec 2, 2022 13:52:56 GMT -5
Ballistic, I do appreciate the replies to my thread on bullet drift. Sorry if I failed to acknowledge some of the replies. I'll add a reply on that thread to address your comments above, to avoid getting off topic here.
I'm not sure why, in your opinion, it appears that I'm a know it all in every area and an expert as well. I could start by telling you "know it all" should by hyphenated, but that is not relevant to this post. Personal attacks are childish and don't add anything substantive to the discussion. Back on topic, you have had one discussion with a single CO about Blackhorn. It is a valid data point. I have also been involved in discussions with DWR employees on this topic, and was part of THE discussion that got the wording of the law changed. Back when Blackhorn 209 was first introduced, the wording in the proclamation made it illegal (nitrocellulose-based). But since it was a black-powder substitute, some people were using it anyway. I spoke with the Big Game Coordinator seeking clarification of the rule because I wanted to try the new powder but didn't want to break the law. He told me that others had the same concern, and he was working on a solution. The DWR then released a statement that they would not prosecute anyone for using it until they got the law clarified to either allow or disallow Blackhorn 209. So during the RAC discussions in 2012 they put this item on their agenda and recommended modifying the language in order to make Blackhorn 209 legal. Here is a link to the meeting agenda so you can have "all the facts and law on the table":
They took this line in the proclamation: "(g) is loaded with black powder or black powder substitute, which must not contain nitrocellulose based smokeless powder." and recommended striking the words "nitrocellulose based". They explained the reason for this change as follows: "This change allows for the use of the product Blackhorn 209 that contains nitrocellulose
Studies show an average of 5% increase in velocity when comparing Blackhorn 209 with
traditional propellants
Blackhorn 209 is cleaner burning and would require less frequent cleaning of muzzleloaders"This recommendation passed, and the wording has since been edited to include the phrase, "may contain some nitrocellulose" to further clarify that Blackhorn is legal. You can interpret things how you like, but the facts are out there for anyone to read. The wording in the law is specifically crafted to allow Blackhorn while continuing to outlaw smokeless powder. I won't disagree with you that the State of Utah probably won't prosecute you for using smokeless powder, I just don't see how that is relevant to the discussion. Smokeless powder IS NOT LEGAL. There are many and diverse ways to break the law which will give you an advantage while hunting, but the ease of "getting away with it" does not change their illegality. |
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Post by ballistic on Dec 2, 2022 17:21:10 GMT -5
Ballistic, I do appreciate the replies to my thread on bullet drift. Sorry if I failed to acknowledge some of the replies. I'll add a reply on that thread to address your comments above, to avoid getting off topic here.
I'm not sure why, in your opinion, it appears that I'm a know it all in every area and an expert as well. I could start by telling you "know it all" should by hyphenated, but that is not relevant to this post. Personal attacks are childish and don't add anything substantive to the discussion. Back on topic, you have had one discussion with a single CO about Blackhorn. It is a valid data point. I have also been involved in discussions with DWR employees on this topic, and was part of THE discussion that got the wording of the law changed. Back when Blackhorn 209 was first introduced, the wording in the proclamation made it illegal (nitrocellulose-based). But since it was a black-powder substitute, some people were using it anyway. I spoke with the Big Game Coordinator seeking clarification of the rule because I wanted to try the new powder but didn't want to break the law. He told me that others had the same concern, and he was working on a solution. The DWR then released a statement that they would not prosecute anyone for using it until they got the law clarified to either allow or disallow Blackhorn 209. So during the RAC discussions in 2012 they put this item on their agenda and recommended modifying the language in order to make Blackhorn 209 legal. Here is a link to the meeting agenda so you can have "all the facts and law on the table":
They took this line in the proclamation: "(g) is loaded with black powder or black powder substitute, which must not contain nitrocellulose based smokeless powder." and recommended striking the words "nitrocellulose based". They explained the reason for this change as follows: "This change allows for the use of the product Blackhorn 209 that contains nitrocellulose
Studies show an average of 5% increase in velocity when comparing Blackhorn 209 with
traditional propellants
Blackhorn 209 is cleaner burning and would require less frequent cleaning of muzzleloaders"This recommendation passed, and the wording has since been edited to include the phrase, "may contain some nitrocellulose" to further clarify that Blackhorn is legal. You can interpret things how you like, but the facts are out there for anyone to read. The wording in the law is specifically crafted to allow Blackhorn while continuing to outlaw smokeless powder. I won't disagree with you that the State of Utah probably won't prosecute you for using smokeless powder, I just don't see how that is relevant to the discussion. Smokeless powder IS NOT LEGAL. There are many and diverse ways to break the law which will give you an advantage while hunting, but the ease of "getting away with it" does not change their illegality. I will challenge anyone to open and read the above previous link that sockethead is referring to. The information is from proposals from RAC meetings and are proposals that can’t be found in the administration rules (law) that govern hunting. They are recommendations and it’s unclear if this has passed - it may well have. I challenge sockethead to find if this has passed the proposal stage and can be found in-“For an in-depth look at the state’s big game hunting laws and rules, visit wildlife. utah.gov/rules.” I can’t find anything associated to this RAC proposal. For the 2022 hunting season hunters rely on the latest “Big Game field regulations and guidebook” please open this link and refer to page 43 wildlife.utah.gov/guidebooks/2022_field_regs.pdfThe below is copied from page 43 for muzzleloader requirements. Muzzleloaders Utah Code § 23-20-3 and Utah Admin. Rule R657-5-10 Muzzleloaders may be used during any big game hunt, except the archery hunt. To hunt big game with a muzzleloader, your muzzleloader must meet all of the following requirements: • Both powder and bullet can be loaded only from the muzzle. • It may have open sights, peep sights or a variable- or fixed-power scope, including a magnifying scope. • It can have only one barrel, and the barrel must be at least 18 inches long. • It cannot be capable of firing more than once without being reloaded. • The powder and bullet—or powder, sabot and bullet—cannot be bonded together as one unit for loading. • It must be loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. The black powder or black powder substitute can- not contain smokeless powder, but may contain some nitrocellulose. • To hunt big game, you must use a lead or expanding bullet or projectile that’s at least 40 caliber in size. • If you’re hunting deer or pronghorn, your bullet must be 130 grains or heavier, or your sabot must be 170 grains or heavier. • If you’re hunting elk, moose, bison, bighorn sheep or mountain goat, you must use a 210-grain or heavier bullet, or a sabot bullet that’s at least 240 grains. If you obtain a muzzleloader permit, you may use only the muzzleloader equipment authorized in this section to take the species listed on the permit. You may not possess or be in control of a rifle or shotgun while in the field during the muzzleloader hunt. For the purposes of this section, “field” means a location where you are likely to find the species listed on your permit. (You are not considered to be in the field if you are in an established camping area or traveling For intents of this discussion I am talking about this section (midway above) “• It must be loaded with black powder or a black powder substitute. The black powder or black powder substitute can- not contain smokeless powder, but may contain some nitrocellulose.” The guidebook for 2022 does not address blackhorn 209 and has not removed the areas that recommend what the RAC (keyword “Proposals”) for removing the language of nitrocellulose and adding blackhorn 209. As previously stated - the loopholes and interpretation of the current rule is a grey area. The average hunter will look at the recent guidebook (not a RAC proposal) to determine what the rules are for the next season. RAC stands for Regional Advisory Council where board members make recommendations for future hunts. Most of those recommendations go through a public comment period and are usually (if passed) communicated via news and in the next years guidebook. I will apologize for calling you a know it all. But what did you expect when you stated “Sitting around thinking up ways to break the law and then talk your way out of it when you get caught is not ethical and does not interest me” ? If you (as stated) were a part of the process/discussion to keep blackhorn 209 as a viable substitute - I thank you. You have a powder that contains smokeless. Both western powders and hodgden have SDS sheets that show what’s in the powder. Please post actual passed laws not proposals on this subject -looking forward to seeing it. Until then I will continue to use the 2022 field regulations guidebook - at least for 29 more days -lol. |
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Post by sockethead on Dec 6, 2022 18:52:01 GMT -5
Ballistic, I am familiar with the RAC process. It should be obvious that these recommendations passed, because you can look at the current language in the proclamation and compare it to the previous wording. Of course it passed. The changes were made and are available for anyone to read. I am also aware that Blackhorn contains nitrocellulose. That is obvious and I don't need to read the MSDS sheets to figure it out. I know and understand the laws, their intent, and have no desire to exploit any gray areas or loopholes that may exist. At your request I decided to contact the Utah DWR for some clarification on this issue. To me it's already very clear, but to you and possibly a few others it may not be. Here is the applicable portion of the e-mail I sent: "There is a discussion on [this] forum about the use of smokeless powder for muzzleloader hunting in Utah. Clearly the proclamation says it's not legal. But according to some comments on the forum there have been DWR employees and/or Conservation Officers that are telling people it's okay to use. More specifically they are reportedly saying that the DWR will not check this, nor will they prosecute anyone for using smokeless while muzzleloading"
Here is the response I received from Amy Canning, communication specialist for the DWR:
"I followed up with Capt. Chad Bettridge in reference to your email. Chad is part of our law enforcement leadership. He indicated that smokeless gunpowder is illegal, and we will enforce the law if a person is found to be using it.
We're not sure who might have been saying otherwise — or why — but we will follow up internally too, to make sure everyone is clear on this issue. We certainly appreciate you bringing this topic and the online discussion to our attention."
So there you have it. Smokeless is illegal, end of story.
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