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Post by nyhunter on Aug 1, 2021 14:42:23 GMT -5
I have hunted with one of Jeff's TC Encore 45-70 H.I.S conversions for many years now. My go to load for the last several years has been 56 grains 4198, .060 veggie wad, Accumax 275 and a Federal LR primer. Klye from Pittman bullets sells the veggi wads, make sure to have some on hand. With these lighter loads they help the bullet obtrude and obtain consistent velocities.
Prior to using the veggie wads my velocities and ES were all over the place, needless to say accuracy was far less then desired.
For my gun the veggi wad's significantly improved the accuracy and extreme velocity spreads I initially incurred with load development.
The gun now shoots sub MOA consistently.
Kyle also sells the "Pittman Bullets - .45 Caliber Bullet Seating Jag" along with the "Spinjag Adapter Kit". Both of which will help seat your Accumax bullets properly. www.pittmanbullets.com/shooting-accessories/This load has proven accurate and effectively allowed me to harvest whitetails up to 300 yards with most dropping in there tracks; all without punishing me on the bench.
Best of luck !!!
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Post by yoderjac on Aug 7, 2021 20:41:58 GMT -5
Thanks! I did get a couple jags and spinjag adapters with my bullets. I want to see if the gun settles down, but veggi wads may be my next step if it does not.
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Post by yoderjac on Aug 7, 2021 20:50:12 GMT -5
I finally got back to the range. The gun had been sitting for a week without any cleaning since my last shooting session. I decided to take one shot. I did not bother setting up the chronograph. Here are the results: The target on the left was my final shot of the last shooting session. The target on the right was my single shot this time. When I loaded the bullet, it was slightly harder to push down the barrel than last time but not hard. Perhaps this was because the gun only sat a week and there was less oxidation. I'm not sure. It looks like the shot today was slightly higher but not much. Probably within my ability to stay on target. Looks like the velocity variation I got at the beginning of my last session was not present. After the shot, I immediately pulled the breach plug and ran a bore snake for a .410 shotgun with an embedded brass brush through the barrel. I used no cleaning or lubricating chemicals, just the raw snake. I plan to let the gun sit until the season gets closer. That should give time for any oxidation that is going to for to form. I'll then take another shot and see what happens. If the velocities settle down during my next session, I'll call it good. If not, I'll probably try the veggi wads next.
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Post by superkirby on Aug 7, 2021 21:28:10 GMT -5
These Encores with a Brux can be crazy accurate, especially for a break action. I don’t fancy myself a real good shot like a lot of the guys here, but I can keep 3 or 4 shots touching at a hundred yards, something I’ve never done before this gun. It may not be a long range superstar but it’s all the whitetail gun I could ever ask for and truthfully It will be my go to if I ever go on another elk hunt.
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Post by smokelessk on Aug 14, 2021 8:48:11 GMT -5
I finally got back to the range. The gun had been sitting for a week without any cleaning since my last shooting session. I decided to take one shot. I did not bother setting up the chronograph. Here are the results: View AttachmentThe target on the left was my final shot of the last shooting session. The target on the right was my single shot this time. When I loaded the bullet, it was slightly harder to push down the barrel than last time but not hard. Perhaps this was because the gun only sat a week and there was less oxidation. I'm not sure. It looks like the shot today was slightly higher but not much. Probably within my ability to stay on target. Looks like the velocity variation I got at the beginning of my last session was not present. After the shot, I immediately pulled the breach plug and ran a bore snake for a .410 shotgun with an embedded brass brush through the barrel. I used no cleaning or lubricating chemicals, just the raw snake. I plan to let the gun sit until the season gets closer. That should give time for any oxidation that is going to for to form. I'll then take another shot and see what happens. If the velocities settle down during my next session, I'll call it good. If not, I'll probably try the veggi wads next. One shot only tells so much of the story. Yes, I get it from the hunting perspective. Looking at the previous last shot both are at the 10 o'clock position on the target. With one just about an inch farther from the center than the other. This could easily be due to the shot being fired on a completely separate range session. It does not take much variation of the shooting position/bench technique to result in a one inch difference in point of impact. Particularly when the last shot went the same direction on the target... My two cents anyhow. Good reason for some more shooting for further verification.
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Post by yoderjac on Aug 14, 2021 22:20:30 GMT -5
The gun is new, and I'm still getting use to it. As the thread title says, these are first impressions. Since this is my first smokeless, I'm still learning the process and trying to get consistency in it. I'm still refining the process. I'm trying to understand the impacts of barrel fouling and how much cleaning to do after a shooting session. My initial understanding was that you foul the barrel and don't clean it all season. I'm now wondering what impact running that dry snake with brush will have on my next 1st shot.
I want to wait until there is time for any oxidation that is going to happen take place. I'll then take another 1st shot. With all the other habitat management balls I have in the air, it is hard to find time and I'm not sure I'll be able to do much before the season. I don't have a cooling rod for the barrel, so by taking 1 shot, I'm trying to eliminate any barrel heating issues from the equation. This means I have to set everything up for only one shot which takes a lot of time.
For this first season, I'll probably limit shots to 150 yards. That is more range than I had with my old muzzleloader and certainly a lot more KE. It will also eliminate an issue I had with the old muzzleloader which was finding deer. On a day with little breeze, I shot deer that were obscured by the smoke. Without a blood trail at the impact site, I had no idea which way to go to find a blood trail. I had a couple deer that I was only able to find by walking circles after dark with a FLIR.
Next year, I should have some time to build a cooling rod and do more range work. After that, I'll probably extend my range if the gun supports it. At this point, I se no reason it should not. I have not even begun to try fine tuning the load. I'm just going with Jeff's suggestion.
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Post by dannoboone on Aug 15, 2021 9:42:20 GMT -5
It will also eliminate an issue I had with the old muzzleloader which was finding deer. On a day with little breeze, I shot deer that were obscured by the smoke. Without a blood trail at the impact site, I had no idea which way to go to find a blood trail. This is the very reason I got into smokeless. Most deer were taken early morning/late evening with little to no breeze and targets were completely obscured with the smoke cloud. Did it drop? Did it run and which way?
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Post by yoderjac on Nov 1, 2021 20:53:20 GMT -5
Just a quick update on this adventure. Our ML season started on Saturday. When I loaded the muzzleloader for the first time since my last range session (after which I ran a dry snake with a brush through the barrel). It was slightly tight going down, but not bad at all. I didn't see anything on Saturday and when I got in my stand I noticed the buttstock was a bit loose. On Sunday morning, I removed the buttstock, applied some loctite to the threads and retightened it. I noticed one of the forearm bolts was slightly loose, so I did the same with those.
Sunday evening, I had a 100 yard shot opportunity at a calm feeding mature doe. I put the crosshairs right on her front shoulder and squeezed the trigger. It felt like a good shot but she took off full-steam with no indication of a hit. I took my time and reloaded the muzzleloader. This time the bullet went down smoothly with minimal force. I then went to look for the doe. No blood at the the impact site and no sign of blood where she left the field and entered the pines. I looked and looked and could not find her. I even used a FLIR with no luck. I finally convinced myself I missed her somehow. I don't know when the buttstock had loosened, so I thought perhaps those adjustments and caused a problem or I had knocked the scope out of line or something.
This morning I headed to the range. My first shot was a couple inches low and slightly to the right. Not enough to cause a miss. Next, I removed the shooting bags and rested the barrel on a block of wood on my shooting bench. That shot was only about an inch low. I did this because that is exactly how I executed the shot from my box blind.
I'm not sure what happened. I'm now convinced it was not the gun. I was thinking maybe it was the bullet. This was the first shot at a deer from this gun with this load. Maybe I hit the deer but there was no blood for some reason. So, I then headed out for another look for the doe. Again, not luck finding her.
So, tonight, I decided to hunt a ground blind. I had a young doe at about 60 yards. I wanted to see what was going on with the gun, so I decided to take her. Again, I aimed at the front shoulder. In this popup blind, I had the barrel on a monopod. When I squeezed the trigger, the deer dropped in her tracks. When I headed out to get her, I found her shoulder completely destroyed! It was not the bullet.
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Post by yoderjac on Nov 3, 2021 22:25:30 GMT -5
Things are getting even more confusing for me. Tonight I had 2 deer in a field inside 100 yards. I took my time and rested the barrel on the window seal just like last time. In fact, I was shooting from the same window of the same blind where I previously missed the deer. I put the crosshairs right on the deer's shoulder, focused, and slowly squeezed of the shot. Both deer jumped and went on alert but did not leave the field. After a bit, they calmed down and went back to feeding, so I know it was a clean miss.
I reloaded and decided to try again. I put even more focus into the next shot. I put the crosshairs on the front shoulder and squeezed. The deer was clearly hit. It limped off the field like I broke the leg. I reloaded once more before heading out to look for the deer. Before I could leave the blind, I noticed the other deer was back in the field. Once again, I settled on the front shoulder and squeezed the trigger. The deer disappeared. I did not see it run.
I reloaded one more time and then headed out to see what was going on. The second deer had dropped into the brassica and that is why I could not see it. I then looked into the pines and saw the first deer I shot laying on the ground. I figured I had both...NOT. As I approached the first deer I had shot, it got up and ran. Clearly it only had a broken leg, not a mortal wound.
When I picked up the second deer, I found it was shot in the neck. That is a good 6"-8" to the right of my aim point. I can tell about vertical as the shot was far enough forward that depending on head position that I wasn't paying attention to when I shot, it is possible vertical was high, low, or right on.
There is clearly some difference between how this gun is performing in my hands in the field, compared to the range. For now, I'm blaming it on me, but I don't seem to have this issue with my .300 Win Mag barrel on the same frame.
After the season, I'm going to need to do some serious practice at the range, not just shooting with bags. I think that is the only way I'll be able to figure this out. For the rest of this year, I think I'll just limit myself to traditional muzzleloader ranges under 100 yards. If I don't figure this out, it won't be a long-range gun for me.
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Post by lakeplainshunter on Nov 4, 2021 3:32:27 GMT -5
I took my time and rested the barrel on the window seal just like last time. Are you really resting on the barrel while shooting? Do you do this at the range? This could be a source of your issue. I never rest my barrel on anything. Always rest on the Stock or Receiver depending on the gun. Things for you to evaluate.
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Post by smokelessk on Nov 4, 2021 5:42:02 GMT -5
Things are getting even more confusing for me. Tonight I had 2 deer in a field inside 100 yards. I took my time and rested the barrel on the window seal just like last time. There is clearly some difference between how this gun is performing in my hands in the field, compared to the range. For now, I'm blaming it on me, but I don't seem to have this issue with my .300 Win Mag barrel on the same frame. After the season, I'm going to need to do some serious practice at the range, not just shooting with bags. I think that is the only way I'll be able to figure this out. I would highly suggest shooting the gun at the range the same way you shoot in the field. This is something I learned the hard way through similar experiences. ESPECIALLY with guns that have heavy recoil. The gun WILL recoil differently when shot from a field position compared to shooting from a bench and bags. Sometimes the difference is miniscule, sometimes it is not. With heavier recoil the difference will be magnified. And... Don't rest the barrel on anything. That is about the worst thing one can do to affect the barrel harmonics. Bad idea. It will also change the recoil impulse/recoil control. I would look at the technique you use to hold the rifle on the bench. Then compare it to the shots taken in the field. Example, when shooting on the bench do you hold the forend and the grip on the rifle? If you are not holding firmly onto the forend that will also create a different point of impact. It is about recoil control. The recoil has to be consistent. Changes in the recoil impulse will show up downrange. Sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. The bullet is still in the barrel as the gun begins to recoil. You have to keep the recoil consistent. For my range shooting for my muzzleloaders I shoot from the sitting position with the forend resting on my primos trigger stick tripod. The same thing I do in the field. If you are having trouble with resting the gun in the hunting blind I would look at a tripod set up. And then practice at the range with the tripod. The Bog Deathgrip is one that strikes my interest for a shooting blind. My primos trigger stick does well for my style of hunting, but I'm not in a blind.
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Post by buckeye68 on Nov 4, 2021 6:35:30 GMT -5
We need some more information on how you shoot from the bench vs how you are shooting in the field. Information on your gun set up and load you are using. Have you checked your scope rings and rail to make sure it’s not loose?
Shooting from a lead sled with weight will definitely change your point of impact in the field.
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Post by jimbob on Nov 4, 2021 7:07:02 GMT -5
Never rest the barrel on anything that’s a big No No Neither the less try and duplicate your range setup or vice a versa
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Post by yoderjac on Nov 4, 2021 8:59:17 GMT -5
I took my time and rested the barrel on the window seal just like last time. Are you really resting on the barrel while shooting? Do you do this at the range? This could be a source of your issue. I never rest my barrel on anything. Always rest on the Stock or Receiver depending on the gun. Things for you to evaluate. Yes, I was resting the barrel on the window ceil of the blind. I did not want it to pultrude out far enough for deer to see it. It gave me a solid rest, but I understand it could cause an accuracy issue. That is why, when I went to the range the next morning, my first shot was with bull bags to check the scope and gun. It was 2 inches low and 1/2 inch to the right. For my second shot, I rested the barrel on a 6x6 to simulate what I did in the blind. The shot was only off vertically by an inch and horizontally by 1/2 inch. Now, that was just one shot and may have been a fluke. Who knows if I rested the barrel in the same spot. This is so far my best guess as to the issue but it is going to take some time at the range after the season for me to completely understand what is going on. I do realize that resting the barrel is not a good shooting practice, but in a hunting situation you make compromises. Perhaps this is one that wont' work for me.
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Post by yoderjac on Nov 4, 2021 9:03:49 GMT -5
We need some more information on how you shoot from the bench vs how you are shooting in the field. Information on your gun set up and load you are using. Have you checked your scope rings and rail to make sure it’s not loose? Shooting from a lead sled with weight will definitely change your point of impact in the field. You should find all those details earlier in the thread along with velocities and target pics. If the scope was loose, I would have expected much more dispersion when I went back to the range and took those two shots.
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Post by smokelessk on Nov 4, 2021 9:29:39 GMT -5
Are you really resting on the barrel while shooting? Do you do this at the range? This could be a source of your issue. I never rest my barrel on anything. Always rest on the Stock or Receiver depending on the gun. Things for you to evaluate. Yes, I was resting the barrel on the window ceil of the blind. I did not want it to pultrude out far enough for deer to see it. It gave me a solid rest, but I understand it could cause an accuracy issue. I do realize that resting the barrel is not a good shooting practice, but in a hunting situation you make compromises. Perhaps this is one that wont' work for me. Obviously you do not understand. If this is a compromise you are willing to make while shooting at game animals.
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Post by buckeye68 on Nov 4, 2021 9:47:05 GMT -5
We need some more information on how you shoot from the bench vs how you are shooting in the field. Information on your gun set up and load you are using. Have you checked your scope rings and rail to make sure it’s not loose? Shooting from a lead sled with weight will definitely change your point of impact in the field. You should find all those details earlier in the thread along with velocities and target pics. If the scope was loose, I would have expected much more dispersion when I went back to the range and took those two shots. Never assume anything just ask Alex Baldwin. I will also assume that everyone knows about barrel harmonics but that’s not the case. If you rest your barrel on anything your changing the harmonics of the bullet and it will change the bullet flight path. In your case missing or wounding a deer. Deer hunting is all about being patient and waiting for the right shot. If you have to wait another minute to get the forearm of the gun on the window so be it. Also don’t assume your not going to get a little feed back on your shooting on a deer. I want to thank you for your honesty.
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Post by rlp10ml on Nov 4, 2021 11:08:31 GMT -5
jac... My apologies for not reading every post if this has already been answered. I was having this same issue on a brand new build. Everything was new including a $1500.00 Leupold scope.The gun started out very accurate and then started shooting all over the place, and this was only after 10 shots or so. After going back through and checking everything for tightness etc., I decided to send the scope back to Leupold to have them check it out. The scope was sent back to me with a repair order that said "Loose & Damaged Erector" & "Internal Coatings coming off". Needless to say with a clean bill of health I sent the scope down the road and replaced it with a Nightforce and everything went right back to normal and has never missed a beat. Not bashing any brand but things do happen and just wanted to share my experience.
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Post by yoderjac on Nov 4, 2021 12:21:59 GMT -5
You should find all those details earlier in the thread along with velocities and target pics. If the scope was loose, I would have expected much more dispersion when I went back to the range and took those two shots. Never assume anything just ask Alex Baldwin. I will also assume that everyone knows about barrel harmonics but that’s not the case. If you rest your barrel on anything your changing the harmonics of the bullet and it will change the bullet flight path. In your case missing or wounding a deer. Deer hunting is all about being patient and waiting for the right shot. If you have to wait another minute to get the forearm of the gun on the window so be it. Also don’t assume your not going to get a little feed back on your shooting on a deer. I want to thank you for your honesty. I do have a rudimentary understanding of barrel harmonics. Yes, I completely agree that resting the barrel effects accuracy. I've never had a big issue doing this with any firearm and distances under 100 yards. Even a shotgun with slugs. Any error it has introduced at this range has been in an inch or two. So, as another poster asked, am I willing to do this when shooting at game animals? In the past the answer has always bene yes. An inch or two is well inside the kill zone. I certainly would not do this at longer ranges. What surprises me was the magnitude of the error it is causing with this gun (presuming that is the cause). Perhaps my one shot at the range simulating this was a fluke and it is the cause. I certainly won't be doing it again until I can confirm it is not the issue. As for the Leupold scope, I have many of them and it has been my preferred brand. I have yet to have a problem with one, but I know they occur from time to time with any brand. I have nothing to indicate I have a scope issue yet. I put together a temporary setup with bull bags for tonight. If I'm lucky enough to get a shot, it should tell me something...I hope.
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Post by buckeye68 on Nov 4, 2021 12:39:22 GMT -5
I would sure hope you go to the range and test your theory on paper before you pull the trigger on another deer.
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