|
|
Post by Richard on Dec 17, 2015 11:23:42 GMT -5
Basically, Tuesday was not a day for much in the way of “bug holes!’ Primarily what I was doing is test a duplex load in two different rifles for an “apples to apples” assessment. The one was my 28” .45 Brux with muzzle brake and 8x32 NF scope and the other, my 27 ½” Shilen with brake and 16X MK IV scope. All the bullets I shot were very generic Hornady XTP’s, FTX’s and SST’s. NO high dollar bullets (can’t afford to shoot that many  ) Other than the very last group (300 yards), the rest were shot at 100. Groups One thru Seven were shot with 8/62 --- Clays/H-4198. For no particular reason other than I had a full ammo box (25) of them. I use 50 round boxes that my vials fit in. Temperature at 7:00 a.m. was 47 and clear with no wind. Group #1 (Brux) started off pretty good with the 250 XTP (the fouling group) at 2855 fps with a 19 fps ES and a .747 three shot group. Switching to the Shilen the velocity was 2836 fps with a 36 fps ES and a 1.8” three shot group. #3 using the Brux and a 200 gr. FTX gave 3014 fps with a 35 fps ES and a 1.8” group. #4 with the Shilen gave 3008 fps with an 8 fps ES and a 2.8” three shot group. #5 (Brux) using the 250 SST gave 2891 fps with a 41 fps ES and a 2.3” three shot group. #6 (Shilen) 2887 fps with a 19 fps ES and a identical 2.3” group’ Scratching my head, I went back to the very first load and re fired it again with the Brux. #7 First two shots about touched and the third drifted up for a 1.6” . Actually the shape and location were very similar save for the third shot. Here again I look at the quality of bullet……..which is nothing more than a pistol bullet shot three times the velocity as it was meant for. The group wanted to repeat but just didn’t quite make it. Here is where it got interesting…………I went to the Shilen using a 300gr. SST and 10/60 of Clays and H-4198: #8 The first three shots averaged 2756 with a 20 fps ES and a somewhat vertical 1.3” group. I was noticing that these bullets were going down somewhat tight….two hands! I then started re sizing them smaller and smaller with the Swinglock die. (we have a press at the range). With the somewhat looser fit, the second three shots averaged 2748 fps (notice not a big change in velocity) and the ES decreased to 15 fps with the group shrinking to .528”. The average of all six shots was 2751 fps with a 28 fps ES. Now here is the second interesting note…………….. I switched from the Clays/4198 to 10/70 Clays/ H-322 using the 300 gr. XTP in the Brux barrel. #9…First shot:2789 fps……………then the next succeeding five shots averaged 2726 fps with a 16 fps ES. Not counting shot #1, the best three in a row were .8” with all five in 1.3”. So, does switching from one powder to another cause a change in velocity/POI? In this case I would definitely say it did? 63 fps drop in velocity and big shift in POI! #10…The fact that the 300 SST tightened up at 100, I took it out to 300 and it did not disappoint with 3 in 1.8”.  photo uploading image upload |
|
|
|
Post by schunter on Dec 17, 2015 11:39:21 GMT -5
Good information Richard. Are the bullets sized the same for the Brux & Shilen? Probably not but just curious...
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Dec 17, 2015 11:52:52 GMT -5
Well lets say they are sized for similar fit. Actual size wise? NO! The Brux likes a bullet right around .4498 and the Shilen .4490-1" At .4492 they were on the tight side. Elkman came up with the same sizing for his Shilens also.
I would figure that the Brux (at least mine?) is right at .4500 Land to Land. You could probably get a .450 bullet down.........ONE time...........then you would need to size a couple of ten thousandths smaller. The Shilen is probably right at .4493" and the same deal.
|
|
|
|
Post by schunter on Dec 17, 2015 11:59:47 GMT -5
Thanks Richard. It will be very interesting to see if you have a repeat of velocity/POI change when changing powders like you saw with group 8.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hank on Dec 17, 2015 23:43:42 GMT -5
Any day at the range is a good day,,,,, so the groups weren't bug holes....,, you still had fun.....didn't you...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 1:02:27 GMT -5
So, from what you've seen so far,on a fouled barrel what has been the most accurate loading pressure...saboted it used to be that a tight fit was a must....
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Dec 18, 2015 21:37:46 GMT -5
Allen...............most everything I shot sabot less (at least with smooth sized bullets) seems to like a loose or a "not tight" fit. Strange? I have kind of backed off of the FF stuff as I have personally not seen any advantage and it is just a PIA in bullet preparation and loading; particularly with muzzle brakes. You would think full forming would be the "cats butt" however I have not seen it? I think in some of the sub calibers you are forced into full forming due to bullet availability but the .45's don't seem to need it to shoot accurately? Go figure?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 22:29:05 GMT -5
Allen...............most everything I shot sabot less (at least with smooth sized bullets) seems to like a loose or a "not tight" fit. Strange? I have kind of backed off of the FF stuff as I have personally not seen any advantage and it is just a PIA in bullet preparation and loading; particularly with muzzle brakes. Y ou would think full forming would be the "cats butt" however I have not seen it? I think in some of the sub calibers you are forced into full forming due to bullet availability but the .45's don't seem to need it to shoot accurately? Go figure? Even the venerable Tom Post agrees with this. |
|
|
|
Post by deadeye on Dec 19, 2015 12:38:00 GMT -5
Allen...............most everything I shot sabot less (at least with smooth sized bullets) seems to like a loose or a "not tight" fit. Strange? I have kind of backed off of the FF stuff as I have personally not seen any advantage and it is just a PIA in bullet preparation and loading; particularly with muzzle brakes. You would think full forming would be the "cats butt" however I have not seen it? I think in some of the sub calibers you are forced into full forming due to bullet availability but the .45's don't seem to need it to shoot accurately? Go figure? Richard- I have found the exact same on bullet seating's & es's-i know does not make sense but I don't want to fight a tight loading anyhow.
I have also noticed when changing some powders/bullet combo's the barrel fouls differently causing suspicion for a couple of foulers & adjustment before getting possible more true results that may have to be fine tuned or a re cleaning & known foul in for best results jmho
example- with 327mh with I4831 the bore felt much different with the same sized bullet. there was even a small difference between I4198 & H4198 in my gun just recently.
calipers for bullet sizing- to me a waste of time-I just go with the seating resistance hand loading feel by adjusting die for bullet to bore fit.
it also appears my last batch of parker 327's are much more consistent as the ramrod tells me/not scientific but just my way fwiw.
|
|
|
|
Post by itneverends22 on Dec 19, 2015 13:01:16 GMT -5
Richard, and all other members, A big thank You! for all the testing, and valuable information you pass on to us board members!!
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard on Dec 19, 2015 15:58:24 GMT -5
In my opinion I see no reason to go and shoot all this stuff and test stuff if I can't share it? There is no formal competition in our game so I don't need to hide any secrets...........The Kentucky Challenge??? That is not formal, that is just fun. But even in the 600 yard IBS competition I shoot in, no one is stingy with giving out information. There is no money to be made so why not share.
|
|
|
|
Post by keith on Dec 20, 2015 8:08:43 GMT -5
Allen...............most everything I shot sabot less (at least with smooth sized bullets) seems to like a loose or a "not tight" fit. Strange? I have kind of backed off of the FF stuff as I have personally not seen any advantage and it is just a PIA in bullet preparation and loading; particularly with muzzle brakes. Y ou would think full forming would be the "cats butt" however I have not seen it? I think in some of the sub calibers you are forced into full forming due to bullet availability but the .45's don't seem to need it to shoot accurately? Go figure? Even the venerable Tom Post agrees with this. I'm fully willing to admit I may not have sizing nailed down but my .458 shoots better with FF than SF (and it took a minute to sort out sizing for that barrel ) but the difference is about .5 MoA. Prior to this gun I had only shot FF because my other gun is .451 and it shoots little butthole groups too. For me, theory and practice match. I'm going to keep trying SF in hopes I get it figured out, for self edification, but I will likely stick with FF unless SF shoots in the .1xx's or smaller. |
|
|
|
Post by jims on Dec 20, 2015 9:49:07 GMT -5
Every barrel is different it seems. Smooth formed has worked well for me, it just seems for my barrels the Full formed is more finicky so I have been using more smooth form as it is easier for me. It just "seems" to me however that FF should be better, when I really have time to work on it perhaps it will.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 10:06:50 GMT -5
Even the venerable Tom Post agrees with this. I'm fully willing to admit I may not have sizing nailed down but my .458 shoots better with FF than SF (and it took a minute to sort out sizing for that barrel ) but the difference is about .5 MoA. Prior to this gun I had only shot FF because my other gun is .451 and it shoots little butthole groups too. For me, theory and practice match. I'm going to keep trying SF in hopes I get it figured out, for self edification, but I will likely stick with FF unless SF shoots in the .1xx's or smaller. I freely admit I don't have either disciplines 'nailed down'. Now having a gun that will shoot the heavier bullets should help with some full forming. I don't hear much about the Barnes Originals. I guess they are not to popular. |
|
|
|
Post by keith on Dec 20, 2015 17:21:07 GMT -5
I've only shot the BO from sabots.
|
|
)
