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Post by bkm on Jun 17, 2020 20:16:32 GMT -5
I have something going on that I can’t figure out.
Fired this bbl for the first time just before the KY challenge last yr.
It is a 45 and shoots exceptionally well.
I set it up with a new die, got it sighted in, shot a couple matches and hunted with it last fall.
Here’s what is happening. When it was brand new I could shoot it a few shots, put it away for a few days then reload it effortlessly when I was ready to shoot again.
Last yr at the Challenge I fired a couple rds on Friday then shot the entire match on Saturday. I never cleaned it or ran a patch through it.
All was well for approximately 150 rds or so on the bbl.
I normally clean after 25-30 rds or more often as conditions require.
The bbl now has a few hundred rds on it. It’s still very accurate but now after only a few rds it tightens up until I cannot push a bullet down it.
Nothing has been changed. The die has never been adjusted , same lot of powder, primers and bullets as I started with.
I have a Hawkeye borescope and there’s nothing in the bore that I can detect.
Am I missing something? Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Thanks ahead for ur input.
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Post by deadeye on Jun 17, 2020 21:08:25 GMT -5
Humidity/Dew Point/ my guess/Ime... this effects the load/fouling etc
this is why i don't size too many too soon,if you are on the tight loading side more prevalent///loose side loading a little more room to breathe as far as loading/groups etc
just a SWAG!
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Post by elkman1310 on Jun 18, 2020 9:19:26 GMT -5
You didn't mention what bullet or powder your working with. If your bullets were a snug fit before over time they can spring back 1/10 or so and that would make it harder to load but usually once you start firing the gun the powder residue will act as a lubricant and should help with loading. If you have a good micrometer that measures out to 1/10 thousands you can accurately keep track of your bullet diameters and see if over time you have a change. A long bearing surface bullet like a 300gr SST will load harder then a Pittman which has a much shorter bearing surface.
I would take a few bullets and measure them and run some back through your sizing die and see how they fit in your barrel after its fouled.
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Post by deadeye on Jun 18, 2020 9:35:22 GMT -5
+1////also are you using same bullet lube through your sizing die?
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Post by ultimtepredator on Jun 18, 2020 12:20:35 GMT -5
I have to agree with deadeyes First post, after deer season is over I start shooting on most Sunday afternoons taking press and sizing bullets as I shoot. I have talked to other members here about when the humidity starts it totally changes my loading process and I shoot exclusively H4895 and 325 aeromax. In the .45 .One incident that comes to mind during a hot afternoon right around turkey season was stepping away from the rifle to talk to the farmer coming to work the field , was away maybe 10-15 minutes and wound up getting bullet stuck after residues set up in higher humidity.. during cooler weather it loads like butter.. just my experiences with what BKM is experiencing also
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Post by bkm on Jun 18, 2020 12:22:01 GMT -5
Sorry guys. I guess I wasn’t very clear.
I’m sizing bullets to the exact same (measured) diameter as when I begun shooting the bbl.
The lube is the same container (Imperial , which lasts forever).
Didn’t mention which powder or bullet because I didn’t think it was relevant. My thinking was if it worked for 150 rds why doesn’t it work now.
FWIW the powder is H 4895 and the bullets are 300 Aeromax’s.
As mentioned all these components are from the same lot #.
Hope I did a better job explaining.
Thanks again
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Post by elkman1310 on Jun 18, 2020 13:45:27 GMT -5
Well anything is possible with heat and humidity. I do very little muzzleloader shooting in the summer time so I have not run into this problem nor have any of my customers I built guns for. One guys shoots all summer in 90 plus days. but he only runs Imr 4198 and has never had a problem. H4895 is quite a bit slower burning but it burns very clean in a 45 caliber barrel as long as you are using enough to get the pressure up high enough so that it does burn cleanly. I run 105grs with a 300gr Aero. This is out of a straight 1.250 barrel this is safe in my gun but it is not for any small shank or break action conversion.
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Post by deadeye on Jun 19, 2020 7:16:39 GMT -5
Sorry guys. I guess I wasn’t very clear. I’m sizing bullets to the exact same (measured) diameter as when I begun shooting the bbl. The lube is the same container (Imperial , which lasts forever). Didn’t mention which powder or bullet because I didn’t think it was relevant. My thinking was if it worked for 150 rds why doesn’t it work now. FWIW the powder is H 4895 and the bullets are 300 Aeromax’s. As mentioned all these components are from the same lot #. Hope I did a better job explaining. Thanks again i would re-adjust your sizing die when the bullet is stubborn going down,then hopefully it will shoot in cool weather also//i think this is what i have done over the years. at a ky shoot in august a couple of years back as always i follow the same routine> #1-friday during kitchen set up i break to shoot 1 shot at each yardage100 thru 400-all went well loading & target performance #2-sat am before the shoot i shoot 1-again all well #3- 4 bullets laid out for 100yd relay-again all well-then approx 50min wait before i was called to 200yd relay #4-4 bullets laid out for 200yd relay-bullets loaded noticeably harder than usual-thought i was done for competition right there but survived as a decent relay. *** contemplated after all 4 shots loaded harder about going to the press to knock them slightly smaller- i chose to leave as is> #5-300 & 400yd relay all bullets returned as they were supposed to load. My Theory- i think at the time the 200 yd relay was shot the sun was rising burning off some of the dew off the grass in turn moisture was rising/mixing- could not find any flaws in my equipment etc. |
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Post by dennis on Jun 19, 2020 9:08:03 GMT -5
de do you think canned air would help with this moisture issue if used before loading at the beginning of the each round/volly? or would it be too cold and cause further problems? I think yours is a viable analogy.
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Post by bkm on Jun 19, 2020 9:31:25 GMT -5
Thanks Jeff.
That’s interesting. I don’t recall ever having a bbl get tight then loose again. What I’ve noticed with mine is if one loads tight the next one loads even tighter.
U and Steve may be onto something with with the humidity. I do normally set my dies to a pretty snug fit when I’m setting the bbl up so if anything changes it naturally would get harder to load.
It does seem to me like that there would occasionally be a time that the conditions would be similar to the way they were when I began shooting the bbl and it would load normally again. Not the case so far.
I did buy another die and sized some bullets down quite a bit from the original die. Bill and I shot a little match here locally last weekend and I shot the rifle about 30 shots with no problems loading it. As a mater of fact I think maybe I sized them too loose.
If I didn’t have a borescope I’d swear there was fouling in the bbl that has caused this issue. Maybe there is but I can’t seem to get it out no matter how or what I clean with nor can I see anything.
I look forward to seeing everyone at the Challenge.
Thanks again guys.
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Post by Richard on Jun 19, 2020 9:54:20 GMT -5
Dennis...............I do not think canned air will help! If you recall, over a year ago I tried cooling the barrel using a "Barrel Cool" device. It is mainly designed to go into the breech end of a CF rifle an blow air thru the barrel. I put some thin tubing on mine and fed it down the to the breech plug from the muzzle. I did that same thing of "crisping up" that fouling and causing the bullet to feel like it was scraping or grinding as it was being seated! Much the same as letting the barrel cool for long periods of time with fouling inside. I do NOT get that condition when using the cool rod, which I machined for a very close fit. (the closer the fit, the better the cooling results - my rod is .445)
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Post by dennis on Jun 19, 2020 14:05:05 GMT -5
Dennis...............I do not think canned air will help! If you recall, over a year ago I tried cooling the barrel using a "Barrel Cool" device. It is mainly designed to go into the breech end of a CF rifle an blow air thru the barrel. I put some thin tubing on mine and fed it down the to the breech plug from the muzzle. I did that same thing of "crisping up" that fouling and causing the bullet to feel like it was scraping or grinding as it was being seated! Much the same as letting the barrel cool for long periods of time with fouling inside. I do NOT get that condition when using the cool rod, which I machined for a very close fit. (the closer the fit, the better the cooling results - my rod is .445) The air was just a thought, I didn't remember you doing the air thing before, I have a rod also but have not used it except when I shot sabots. I have felt mine load a little sticky when the humidity comes up also. I have started sizing a touch on the loose side recently with decent results. |
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Post by hillbill on Jun 19, 2020 15:47:05 GMT -5
I had the same problem last Sunday when bkm and I shot a match, I was shooting my Bolt gun with .40 275 accumax in front of 80 grains of H-4895 @ 2930 avg.
I also believe it to be a humidity thing? the exact same load in cooler weather was not a problem at all on numerous repeat shots. speeds are almost identical so powder is very temp insensitive.
Keith won that match by the way, (congratulations!) the man knows how to operate the trigger!
I plan to visit other powders tomorrow to see if the same problem persists.
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Post by Richard on Jun 19, 2020 16:09:17 GMT -5
I shot this past Tuesday on the Pouring rain. My bullets were sized on the loose side and I was using 8208 powder. Don't know if it was the powder or the loose fit Pittman's but I felt no semblance of tightness after 26 shots.
Did not post anything this week as the only thing noteworthy was that 89.5 grain of 8208 with the 350 Aero gave a low of 6 fps for 5 shots vs. 16 fps for 91.5 gr. Accuracy about equal at 1.2".
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Post by hillbill on Jun 19, 2020 20:47:20 GMT -5
Ok
So curiosity got the best of me after thinking on this and since I had two different loads of VV powder loaded up I decided to go burn them.
In my mind I'm wondering IF the slower burning Hodgdon powders foul differently when it gets warm out with high humidity?
SO:
tonight I had VV N-530 & 540 to test in the .40 Bolt gun with 275s
530 was first up to bat with 76.5 grains, bullet fit was very loose on a clean barrel
6 shot avg was 2975 or so (no avg it yet)and the last 5 went into a ragged hole, shot 1 was slightly out of the group
after shot 1 all loaded with 2 fingers and very smoothly
so far no fouling buildup. (this load is pretty high pressure so keep that in mind)
the next 6 were with 80 grains of 540, avg was around 2920 or so with good accuracy, still all loaded smoothly with 2 fingers?
I know there were not enough shots fired to have a definitive answer BUT I would have never got that many shots off with my 4895 load without it getting really tight.
This is like comparing apples to oranges I know, .45 to .40 BUT both with H powders? Benchmark and 4895
Could it be Keith's barrel or is it something to do with powder/temp and humidity?
I plan to test the VV powders more soon to see what happens.
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Post by elkman1310 on Jun 20, 2020 0:16:37 GMT -5
Bill you might want to give IMR 4166 a try in your 40 cal. It is a grain slower than H4895 in most cases. It is a new extreme powder. I have shot it in my Dasher and it works really well and it is avaible in most places. I plan on trying it in my 45.
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Post by hillbill on Jun 20, 2020 5:15:53 GMT -5
I have tried 4166 several times with 300s in the .40 and although accuracy was very good it built fouling as well, I know others that have had the same problem, I have yet to try it in this gun with 275s. the fact that it has a 24" total length barrel and shooting the lighter 275s suggests to me that the fouling might be even worse than with the 300s in a longer tube? testing will tell though. for hunting H-4895 will likely be my go to powder, I certainly won't be shooting extended shot strings and until it got hot and humid I never had a problem with it, several times during the spring I shot it 20-25 times with no problems. I will take my plug out today and push a bullet through just to see how "crusty" the bore is after 12 shots with the VV powders. The reason I'm trying different powders now is I'm thinking about shooting the little gun at the August shoot just to see how it stacks up against the big guns? not decided on that one yet.
Back to the topic at hand: Is there a problem with Keith's barrel or could it be the powder?
Unlike CF guns any quirky thing that happens in the bore of these guns we know about it quickly, I have proven to myself that the smaller .40 bore is even more temperamental than the .45s, much more in fact.
Could it be that some of the slower burning powders foul differently in heat and high humidity thus causing the problem or could it be his barrel steel has changed after a couple hundred shots?
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Post by bkm on Jun 21, 2020 17:35:45 GMT -5
I don’t know and probably won’t ever know exactly what’s going on.
Maybe it’s temp and humidity, maybe it’s fouling, maybe something unknown.
I can’t help but believe something has changed in the steel of the bbl.
I have a friend that put a rifle together last yr about the same time as I did. He called me a couple weeks ago with the same problem. The bbl loaded fine at the beginning and has steadily tightened up until he’s having to adjust his die. He has Approximately 150 rds down the bore.
He’s shooting the same components as me (H 4895 & Pittman’s).
This is something I do not claim to know anything about at all but my smith mentioned some bbl companies do not stress relieve their barrels. Some have been known to stress relieve once & some twice during the process.
Just throwing that out there hoping someone here with knowledge about this subject can shine some light on the situation.
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Post by dennis on Jun 22, 2020 6:54:12 GMT -5
I don’t know and probably won’t ever know exactly what’s going on. Maybe it’s temp and humidity, maybe it’s fouling, maybe something unknown. I can’t help but believe something has changed in the steel of the bbl. I have a friend that put a rifle together last yr about the same time as I did. He called me a couple weeks ago with the same problem. The bbl loaded fine at the beginning and has steadily tightened up until he’s having to adjust his die. He has Approximately 150 rds down the bore. He’s shooting the same components as me (H 4895 & Pittman’s). This is something I do not claim to know anything about at all but my smith mentioned some bbl companies do not stress relieve their barrels. Some have been known to stress relieve once & some twice during the process. Just throwing that out there hoping someone here with knowledge about this subject can shine some light on the situation. I am curious to find Out what is the cause. Brux website says their barrels are double stress relieved. Just a fyi. |
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Post by bkm on Jun 22, 2020 16:53:20 GMT -5
Thanks Dennis.
It is a Brux. I didn’t want to say which bbl manufacturer it was because I didn’t know if Brux stress relieved or not. I guess I can rule that out now.
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