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Post by Richard on Mar 18, 2020 13:25:39 GMT -5
So, yesterday was 47*, cloudy and almost rain but no wind at 7 a.m.. Here are some thoughts before I go into what I shot today: Let me say, there are many powders (of various charge weights – including duplex load) and bullets of different profile, composition and weights. I have been doing a lot of testing/shooting over quite a few years and mainly with the heavy barreled Benchrest quality Brux .45………I only have access to this CVA Scout for a couple of months……the first three weeks being a learning curve for me. The rifle is very light, the barrel profile is thin and not of custom quality (but not bad). The trigger is 5+ lbs. and not 7oz. as my Shilen trigger. The scope is a 3 – 9 Burris Ballistic Plex. (vs. 12 x 42 NF) It would be impossible for me to compare all the loads I have shot over the years with the few I shot with this rifle. There is probably a wealth of different combinations that could be tried……….particularly if one was looking to develop a specific hunting load. Even with my poor form the first three weeks, I can say that the saboted .40 bullets performed way better than the ones shot sabotless. Even once I got the rest properly set up, the saboted 228 gr. Pittman Hardcores and the 250 gr. Fury star tips gave me some of the best results. I think the 275 AccuMax along with the 300 gr. Fury gave me some of the best sabot less results. My thoughts are, for anyone planning on getting one of these rifles,is to look at a few of these bullets and then pick one to work with. Now you can concentrate on different powders, sizing….with wad and with out wad…………wool or veggie? No doubt in my mind they make a great “shorter” range “lighter” weight (9 lbs.) compact hunting rifles. I will probably spend another week or so playing with this rifle but by new gun is rapidly coming together and I have to get it ready for Kentucky in mid April. 200yds First off, I put one sighter down range at 100 yards and nicked the 2” dot with with a saboted 228 Pittman (all smooth blue Harvester sabots) over 60 gr. of H-4198. Next, I went to my 200 yard target and used the first Plex dot under the X hair. (did not know how much elevation was needed). It hit slight high and right. Note: I am hanging that 6 ½ lb. bag over the scope mount. Second shot in the dot…..forgot to put the bag on for the third shot and it went wide right. Bag on for the last two which made for a 1.3” group. Not too shabby for this light gun with a 9x scope. 2582 fps/16 fps ES 100 yds. Group #2…250 (.40) Fury star with the same 60 gr. of 4227. 2661 fps/9 fps ES putting three shots in .395” Group #3.. 250 Fury over 62 gr. of IMR-4227 for 2727 fps/21 fps ES. Three shots well centered at 1.3”. Group #4..300 Fury star (.45) w/wad and 63 gr. of 4198 for 2541 fps with a 23 fps ES (very loose seating-could only get them just so tight?) (these had been previously sized smaller for my Brux barrel). While the group was a little bigger, it was still fairly roundish. Here again, If I had been starting with new previously unsized bullet, things could have been different? Not bad, just not great! A duplex might also be in order? 200 #5…Same load. Used the same first Plex under the cross hairs and the shot went 8” low. For the next two shots, I used the second Plex they went a tad high. Again, these are very promising but need more scope and new proper sizing. 100 #6..250 gr. XPB w/wad and knurled (but still very loose) 63 gr. of 4198 gave me 2610 fps with a 15 fps ES for two shots…………one way left and one higher right! Based on these two shots I bailed out! #7…250 FTX w/wad and tight loading over 63 gr. of N-120. 2682 fps/7 fps ES. GREAT ES but did not shoot worth a S^%#! The way they loaded I would have thought they shot better…………NOT! Maybe another powder or maybe a duplex. #8..275 AccuMax w/wad and 65 gr. of 4198 (very tight loading-this bullet needs to be sized a bit smaller). Av. vel. 2648/22 fps ES. I sort of discount the first shot when changing bullets or powder but shot #1 went a tad low then 2,3,4 and 5 grouped in 1.5”. This would be a bullet that I would be playing a lot more with if the rifle was mine. Along with the 228 hard core and the 250 Fury saboted. Again, these are just my opinions from the little shooting I have done with the rifle. Were I going to keep it, a power boost in the scope would be the first order of business along with the trigger being tweaked. (at least for bench shooting)
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Post by rlp10ml on Mar 18, 2020 16:27:31 GMT -5
Thank you Richard... On your #8 (275 Accumax) you mention 4198. Is this Hodgdon H4198 or IMR4198? I ask because you mention H4198 with the 228 Pittman. And what are your thoughts between the two 4198 powders? Thanks again... Rich
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Post by Richard on Mar 18, 2020 17:06:05 GMT -5
I have always used "H" because the powder sticks are smaller than IMR. I have some IMR on hand for testing only. They do give very similar results. If you weight charges then it does not matter...if you throw with a powder measure, Hodgedon is the way to go.
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Post by elkman1310 on Mar 18, 2020 18:21:37 GMT -5
Richard I know your a old pro at shooting one thing I saw with my 45/70 scout was that I had to keep the front bag almost up against the action and then pull down and back with my arm other wise the plastic stock flexes to much. Shooting off a sled my actually cause you accuracy problems with this light weight gun. I don't know if your Scout is the quick take down model or not the centerfires are and that hinge spring setup is not good for accuracy.
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Post by Richard on Mar 18, 2020 19:27:09 GMT -5
Why do some loads shoot good and some do not? If it's what you are saying, they all should shoot bad? Did you read the modifications I did to the sled two weeks ago?
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kip
Full Member
Posts: 199
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Post by kip on Mar 19, 2020 0:50:07 GMT -5
Thanks Richard for doing all this work! and for trying all those loads you tried.
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Post by elkman1310 on Mar 19, 2020 8:26:04 GMT -5
Sorry Richard I have not been following most posts lately to busy trying to finish up some rifle rests. But it maybe for not because if this virus doesn't get contained we will not be starting our 1,000 yard matches on schedule. Small price to pay compared to how a lot of other people are being hurt by the economy.
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Post by Richard on Mar 19, 2020 16:33:37 GMT -5
Your excused Carl!
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Post by doubledrop16 on Apr 10, 2020 14:25:28 GMT -5
I haven't been on here for awhile . Thanks again Richard for doing the testing . 60gr 4227 250FS saboted load , what do you think the pressure is for this load ?
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Post by Richard on Apr 10, 2020 17:55:07 GMT -5
I have no clue? Not much published data/pressure traces? Most PT data was geared to the .45 and don't know of anyone doing traces. If you shoot it with HIS modules, it will be lower than what I generated with the DI modules.
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Post by dennis on Apr 10, 2020 17:57:00 GMT -5
I haven't been on here for awhile . Thanks again Richard for doing the testing . 60gr 4227 250FS saboted load , what do you think the pressure is for this load ? That load may blow the sabot. With 63gr 4227 and sabotless with 300 gr I damaged 10 HIS brass modules. It did not blow primer pockets but I had to get a bushing to resize the nozzle of the module and it fractured the flange/rim of the module when I deprimed them. 55gr may be about top end for sabot load?
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Post by Richard on Apr 10, 2020 20:17:46 GMT -5
So you shot 3 more grains of 4227 and 50 grain more bullet weight? No wonder!
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Post by dennis on Apr 11, 2020 7:18:58 GMT -5
Richard I worked up to that load and didn't realize that 4227 makes way more pressure than 4198. There were never any traces done with 4227. I didn't think 63gr 4227 would exceed 73gr 4198 in pressure but I was wrong. I still use 4227 in my Apex at 53gr and 275gr bullets.
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Post by Richard on Apr 11, 2020 8:57:17 GMT -5
I did several tests where I showed you needed 3 grains more of H-4198 (vs. 4227) to get the same velocity (and resulting pressure). In my past travels thru the smoke less muzzle loading game, I have looked for powders that could achieve the same velocity AND accuracy of one powder, using less of another? Such is the case with 4227 vs. 4198! Just looking at Hodgedon's burn rate chart you will see 4227 is #66 (fastest to slowest) while H-4198 is #75. 4227, 5744, 4759 and N-110 were powders used as boosters (faster burning) in duplexing 4198 in the Savage 50's shooting 250 gr. bullets. Shooting these smoke less muzzle loaders is a game where there is not any FACTORY data, as is the case with center fire cartridges. Shooters have to rely on data gleaned from other experienced ML shooters or.........proceed cautiously when upping charges and bullet weight. Shooters must also be aware that Direct Ignition produces more velocity/pressure than does the Hanks Ignition System (HIS) since there is more direct, unrestricted flame from the primer getting to the powder charge. Typically 50..ish, fps more! Be Safe! A DOUBLE charge is your worst enemy!
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ehart
New Member
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Post by ehart on Jun 26, 2020 9:44:44 GMT -5
Hey Richard, thanks for sharing your knowledge and testing. I have yet to bust a cap in my new scout conversion with HIS. I plan to shoot light loads and charges. I have several of the bullets you shot and others to try. My question is about primers. What seems to be the break point between large rifle and magnum primers? And how do duplex loads play into the equation if at all? Thanks for any input from you or others.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 26, 2020 10:39:08 GMT -5
But the pics list 4227 for group #2?
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Post by Richard on Jun 26, 2020 16:19:25 GMT -5
For your edification.....If you look at my info sheet, you can see I was testing the same bullet with two different charges of 4227? With the amount of data I put on this forum, it is conceivable that an occasional error could occur? And it took you three months to find it?
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 26, 2020 23:56:37 GMT -5
Sorry, i dont wait in awe of your every post or shoot. Someone else bumped the post to the top and i find the 45/70 conversions interesting.
Clarification about the load was all but i can see it somehow managed to get your panties in a bunch for asking 3 months later.
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Post by buckeye68 on Jun 27, 2020 5:04:31 GMT -5
Sorry, i dont wait in awe of your every post or shoot. Someone else bumped the post to the top and i find the 45/70 conversions interesting.
Clarification about the load was all but i can see it somehow managed to get your panties in a bunch for asking 3 months later.
I’m a slow reader...... 😂
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Post by Richard on Jun 27, 2020 6:34:56 GMT -5
No, after three months I'd call it "nit-picking"
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