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Post by Kyle on Nov 28, 2018 18:29:18 GMT -5
As we learn more and more about what these smokeless muzzleloaders like and don't like, the question about wads comes up quite a bit. I've had several customers ask me when and why wads are necessary and also what exactly does a wad do when it is necessary. My thoughts on what a wad does for smooth sizing applications are as follows:
Reduced loads, or loads that are not near max proven loads, like those used in break action conversions often benefit from the use of a wad between the powder and bullet. These reduced loads are generally lower in pressure and likely don't obturate the bullet in the bore as quick as top end loads in heavy built smokeless muzzleloaders.
With MOST rifling being in the neighborhood of .004" deep, gas from the ignited powder can slip around the bullet in the rifling before the bullet obturates into the grooves. This loss of gas before the bullet obturates can lead to inconsistent velocity from shot to shot. This translates to a loss of accuracy and most of the time large groups with vertical stringing.
A wad seems to give resistance in this area where the gas tries to escape. Wad material is likely forced into the grooves and helps to seal the gap. This allows for more consistent velocity from shot to shot, or extreme spread (E.S.) as often referred to.
A wad is sometimes needed even for top end loads depending on bullet construction. I've noticed with the testing of the .402" Aeromax line with my rifle that wads are necessary to get obturation. The Aeromax .402's have thicker bases compared to the AccuMax .402's.
Wads may also benefit those who full form and / or shoot solid copper bullets in their quest for the most accurate load.
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Post by Richard on Nov 28, 2018 19:22:27 GMT -5
Right off the bat, the wads I use are .060" thick and .462" in diameter. With your diameter (Grove) being .458",. (in a .45) that means .002" worth of wad is being pressed into those groves and sealing them.
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 28, 2018 20:42:35 GMT -5
So what difference is seen in veggie vs wool? I know there’s a smell difference.
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Post by hillbill on Nov 28, 2018 21:39:46 GMT -5
In my mind the wool wads being much thicker and more compressible will likely seal better with a hard to obturate bullet?
Just my thinking?
Most guns shoot better with one wad or the other for whatever reason, some with no wad at all.
In my .45s I seldom ever use wads any more? But I am normally running a high end load with heavy bullets.
Like Kyle said it seems the .40 bore land riders prefer wads, I'm running wool in mine with good results.
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Post by Richard on Nov 28, 2018 21:45:31 GMT -5
I have a feeling that the melting wool is also filling the "Grove" void just like the veggie wad. In my mind, the veggie wad does a better job....No proof, just my feeling?
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 28, 2018 22:10:45 GMT -5
I had read somewhere that wool can burn threw when shooting sabots but veggie did not. That is if my mind is remembering things correct.
Thanks guys for sharing your thoughts.
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Post by Richard on Nov 28, 2018 22:15:01 GMT -5
I have never used any wad under a sabot?
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 28, 2018 22:57:25 GMT -5
From what I have read it helps so you can shoot faster. I have 1 CVA Hunter that max load is 50gr the other runs 60grs. I want to try veggie wads to see if I can get the slow gun up to fast gun charges. Yes this is a little off wall but so am I. When I do my range tests it will be posted here.
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Post by doug136 on Nov 29, 2018 9:42:24 GMT -5
I just like the smell of burnt hair . lol wool wads all the way !
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 30, 2018 2:25:09 GMT -5
Kyle what type of wads are you using on the 40cal Aeromax?
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Post by hillbill on Nov 30, 2018 4:41:33 GMT -5
We are using wool wads.
most of us .40 guys are using wool, honestly I have not fired any veggie wads in my guns, are they better? could be but until more testing takes place I don't know.
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Post by Richard on Nov 30, 2018 9:05:44 GMT -5
Looks like a good test for someone with a .40 to try.............Veggie vs. Wool vs. None?
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Post by dannoboone on Nov 30, 2018 12:21:08 GMT -5
Wads may also benefit those who full form and / or shoot solid copper bullets in their quest for the most accurate load. My .451 barrel gets no benefit with wads....it shoots the same groups either way. When FF sizing your .452 bullets, one can see where the OD of the bullet has been squeezed in the groove area. The bullets are as close as one can get to full bore and still be able to push them down the barrel. Off & on for years I tried to get the Barnes 245gr Spitfires to shoot accurately, always using wads. Annealing, knurling to .458, different powder loads....nothing worked. I finally tried them without any kind of wad at all and got MOA that day! Could it have something to do with the wad actually interfering with the slight boat tail on that bullet? I don't know, but do know what works for THAT rifle. Whether it be land riders or full formed bullets, there are just sooooo many variables to keep this smokeless ML business interesting! P.S. I once tried wool wads with no success. Not only that, there was a breeze blowing in my face.....GAG! Upon interring the house, my wife said two words to me, "YOU STINK!" Haven't used them since. |
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Post by sew on Nov 30, 2018 13:00:14 GMT -5
Obturation is certainly different with FF bullets verses land rider/loaded bullets. Depending on the compressibility of a smooth sized bullet and much the same with a FF bullet, the amount of travel in the barrel for full obturation to occur would differ greatly. I’d expect a wad would help with a bullet that has less resistance. Or a load that doesn’t build pressure as fast.
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Post by sew on Nov 30, 2018 13:00:24 GMT -5
Obturation is certainly different with FF bullets verses land rider/loaded bullets. Depending on the compressibility of a smooth sized bullet and much the same with a FF bullet, the amount of travel in the barrel for full obturation to occur would differ greatly. I’d expect a wad would help with a bullet that has less resistance. Or a load that doesn’t build pressure as fast.
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Post by Richard on Nov 30, 2018 13:29:44 GMT -5
So, my point is.......Hillbill indicated that most guys shooting .40's are using wool wads; but he has not tried veggie wads..........which may or may not work better (without the stink)? So anyone on the forum up for testing both? We know, that full formed bullets do not need a wad so this would be a test with smooth sized bullets. I would do it myself, but am not building a .40 just to test wads  |
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Post by hillbill on Nov 30, 2018 13:31:53 GMT -5
I have both Richard
When I get done with hunting I will do a test with both, I need to test a new powder anyway.
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Post by Richard on Nov 30, 2018 14:07:52 GMT -5
Thank you Bill.............I had you in my radar:) Now if someone had a used .40 laying around collecting dust and was willing to cut loose with it, I might consider putting it on my 700ML? If not, I will probably just sell it!
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Post by sew on Nov 30, 2018 16:01:06 GMT -5
Now that I’ve found where to get the 40 cal vege wads, I’ll plan to also.
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Post by joelmoney on Nov 30, 2018 18:14:20 GMT -5
Looks like a good test for someone with a .40 to try.............Veggie vs. Wool vs. None? Once Kyle makes the 40 cal Aeromax’s I’ll be trying both. Then we will see how a fair shooter shot shoots them fancy new projectiles. 😁 |
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