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Post by slammer on Oct 15, 2015 7:33:54 GMT -5
I need help understanding this I thought if you had a 458 barrel all you could use is 458 bullets! Now im told there are some shooters using 451 bullets in 458 barrels smoth sized with wads could I get some help with this please because now im really confused
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 8:09:08 GMT -5
The barrel tube is .458....A .458 bullet must be Full form sized to fit in it as the rifling will be engraved into the bullet after sizing....A smooth sized .451 bullet will fit in the barrel on top of the rifling lands....Which is commonly refered to as a land rider....Upon ignition the land rider obturates/swells and fills the bore to capture pressure....For ease of loading and bullet selection, most people have gone to landriders and they have shown to be just as accurate as the .458's....I hope this makes things a little clearer to you....
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Post by Richard on Oct 15, 2015 8:54:50 GMT -5
Just to further illustrate what SML (good shrimp Allen) wrote.........You have two diameters: The grove diameter which is .458 and the land diameter which runs in the area of .450/.451" depending on the barrel make and how much or little the guy who laps them at the factory runs his "lapping" rod in and out:) When you full form a .458 bullet, a die is made with a piece of your barrel (referred to as you barrel drop - or the muzzle end that gets cut off prior to crowning) incorporated in it. So now when you run your .458 bullet thru it, you engrave the rifling into it. With this set up, you have to index the bullet when seating so the lands and groves line up.
Conversely, when going with land riders, you use the .451 variety and then use an adjustable sizing die to get them to your specific land dimension. If you put enough pressure (based on y our load) on the base of the bullet, it will fatten or as Allen wrote "swell" (that is actually a great term for what happens). This then will somewhat force the base and sides of the bullet into the groves so rotation can occur. Load that do NOT cause the bullet to swell may only pick up minimal rotation and not be stable when exiting the muzzle...........hence inaccuracy!
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Post by slammer on Oct 15, 2015 10:23:44 GMT -5
So would it be true that you would wont 451 bullets that are smooth formed a little tighter loading then the full formed 458 bullet?  |
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Post by Kyle on Oct 15, 2015 12:26:12 GMT -5
Slammer,
There are guys shooting bug hole groups with loose fitting bullets, some giving them a good kick in the rear with the powder charge. There are guys shooting bug holes with tight fitting bullets. I would size your bullets( smooth or full formed) so that there is no chance of them falling off of the powder charge then shoot a few groups. If those satisfy you then you are good. If not experiment with ever so slightly tighter fitting bullets on your next groups. There is no absolute answer, not every gun reacts the same.
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gar
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Post by gar on Oct 15, 2015 14:03:40 GMT -5
Not wanting to further confuse you, but IMO a land riding bullet can be sized to go down the tube easily if your setup uses a large rifle primer. May need to be sized tighter if using a 209. This may be a generality but my rifle uses the LRMP system and a friend has a 700ml conversion and his rifle needs a bunch more resistance to ignite the powder efficiently. Now with different flash hole sizes you can tweek those results.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 14:07:01 GMT -5
So would it be true that you would wont 451 bullets that are smooth formed a little tighter loading then the full formed 458 bullet? Your question reflects how a certain bullet reacts to initial "swelling" or obturating...With the solid coppers : BARNES,Cutting EDGE,etc... they have been known to need a faster spike in pressure to perform well....Richard has shown that with his extensive testing using Clays as a booster in his duplexs....Annealing these bullets can help to soften them and makes them easier swell....On the other side of the spectrum of bullets are the thin jacketed Parker Ballistic extremes and the e-max's that obturate well with single powder loads.... The hornady's have a thicker jacket so tighter fitting might work better ....As Kyle mentioned, although you might have an "Identical" gun as someone else, each one has its own particular flavor of bullet,powder combo that works the best....Good luck finding your gun's "Holy Grail" load....
I have a McGowan barreled .458 that shoots a .451 250sst/ftx better if I run it through my full form die....Its fairly tight loading but with the rifling engraved in the bullet I am actually filling more of the bore initially....Experimentation is what its all about brother....
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Post by thumper on Oct 15, 2015 21:16:11 GMT -5
Great question and great answers guys! I'm new also just getting everything ordered to shoot my Encore conversion.Going to shoot the 275 BE's. I had been wondering the smooth form/full form thing myself. I had Jeff make me a die from my drop and figured it was a no brainer that full forming would be the ticket, but after these simple detailed explanations, It's starting to click what needs to be accomplished from ignition,swelling,etc...Question. Wouldn't it be beneficial to use Large rifle Magnum Primers as opposed to Large rifle primers? Especially in Cold weather conditions? Thanks
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gar
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Post by gar on Oct 16, 2015 5:22:20 GMT -5
Thumper, I would say it is beneficial to use the magnums but a buddy of mine uses the Remington 9 1/2's in cold late season Nebraska hunting and does fine.
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Post by slammer on Oct 16, 2015 6:20:25 GMT -5
it's all becoming very clear now thanks for the helpful replys. Great bunch of shooters over here no one makes you fell like a dummy THANKS BOBBY
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Post by dannoboone on Oct 16, 2015 11:39:15 GMT -5
I need help understanding this I thought if you had a 458 barrel all you could use is 458 bullets! Now im told there are some shooters using 451 bullets in 458 barrels smoth sized with wads could I get some help with this please because now im really confused
The main reason for me getting a full form die was to be able to shoot all bullets .451-.458. A smooth die limits one to the .451-.452 bullets. If that's all one plans to shoot, my reasoning becomes a non-issue, but those 310APB's sure fly true!! Seems like Hank makes one in which you can have the best of both worlds, though.  |
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