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Post by Hank on Jun 1, 2017 21:22:41 GMT -5
OK. I said I was going to post a thread and ask everyone their opinion about setting some rules and regulations for the Kentucky Challenge. So I am asking everyone the attends the Challenge for their opinions and for you guys that have not attended, you can also post your opinions, but I will be putting more emphasis on the opinions of those that have attended the shoots in the past.
I would like to know what you all think would be fair across the board and I would also like for you to post the weight of your fully, ready to shoot rifle. The classes will be broken up into weight classes along with some other regulations so the weight of your rifle will be important in determining the weight limits for classes.
Now as everyone knows the Kentucky Challenge is mostly set up so that everyone can attend and have fun, so we will not be making so many classes that everyone is in their own class. I see a possibility of three or four classes, we just need to get some ideas from you guys to set the regulations.
None of these regulations will be set in stone and can change from time to time as things progress in the world of smokeless muzzle loading. But we will not change rules at the last minute or at any of the shoots. All rules will be talked about on this board before we change anything and will not take effect for 3 months after these set rules have been posted to this board.
We will set some new rules and regulations for the next Kentucky Challenge coming up in August and see how this all works out. After all, we are all a bunch of guys that really just loves to shoot and hang around with like minded people. I don't want to make this complicated, lets keep it fun for everyone.
So, now lets hear the ideas you all have....
Thanks Jeff Hankins.
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Post by Kyle on Jun 1, 2017 22:00:13 GMT -5
I'd like to see something like this :
Class 1 - Still Hunter Class, 10lb or less with limit on scope magnification, no riflestock modifications for more forearm contact to front rest, no caliber restriction.
Class 2 - Stand Hunter Class, 10lb plus to 15lb with limit on scope magnification, no riflestock modifications for more forearm contact to front rest, no caliber restriction.
Class 3 - Benchrest Class, 15lb plus with no limit on scope magnification, unlimited stock modifications, no caliber restriction.
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Post by tnhunter54 on Jun 2, 2017 3:17:09 GMT -5
Well I think Kyle covered it pretty good.
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Post by dennis on Jun 2, 2017 7:03:29 GMT -5
Well I think Kyle covered it pretty good. +1
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jun 2, 2017 9:05:59 GMT -5
Sorry Guys..... I have to withdraw at this time. As I have been informed so many times in my life that I have no class. Drop
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Post by dennis on Jun 2, 2017 11:08:13 GMT -5
Sorry Guys..... I have to withdraw at this time. As I have been informed so many times in my life that I have no class. Drop Not at all true my friend.
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Post by Hank on Jun 2, 2017 13:24:25 GMT -5
Sorry Guys..... I have to withdraw at this time. As I have been informed so many times in my life that I have no class. Drop I have to disagree.. I think you got a lot of class...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2017 14:28:38 GMT -5
I've only attended the first one and the 3rd, so I haven't witnessed the progression of rules other than when Richard came over and had to add target score to the equation, which he brought over from the benchrest world....Imho the more rules and regs,the more fun you take out of the "Challenge"....There are no prizes other than memories of the shoot...Hank's Cyclops changed things comparable to bringing out a full blown dragster to a street race...And has won with it...Oh well, so what, there are still some awesome shooters that still had a great time...While the other manufacturers that Hank "Challenged" to show their stuff STILL have not....KISS, for the uninformed, that means keep it simple stupid....If you want class , go to friendship and have them make up all the rules to handcuff the real shooters like Bestill and Doug....
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Post by hunter on Jun 2, 2017 17:57:25 GMT -5
I have only been to the first two shoots, hope that changes by spring, possible fall shoot. My guns are light and short and I know they will not set in the bags as well as the heavier-longer barreled guns but I still enjoy the shoots. A couple different classes might be OK as long as it dosent separate all the folks that come to have a good time and meet the different people. I personally compete against myself when shooting and enjoy being part of the group. To tight of restrictions may take away from the event, What if a scope craps in the middle of a shoot and a person has to change scopes which may be heavier or more magnification which may disqualify him from continuing? I agree with others to keep it simple and fun. But since I have not been there for a couple years I have not heard the general wants and needs of the group.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2017 20:18:22 GMT -5
I've only attended the first one and the 3rd, so I haven't witnessed the progression of rules other than when Richard came over and had to add target score to the equation, which he brought over from the benchrest world....Imho the more rules and regs,the more fun you take out of the "Challenge"....There are no prizes other than memories of the shoot...Hank's Cyclops changed things comparable to bringing out a full blown dragster to a street race...And has won with it...Oh well, so what, there are still some awesome shooters that still had a great time...While the other manufacturers that Hank "Challenged" to show their stuff STILL have not....KISS, for the uninformed, that means keep it simple stupid....If you want class , go to friendship and have them make up all the rules to handcuff the real shooters like Bestill and Doug.... I agree with Alan we should get away from the benchrest format and focus more the fun stuff. I do realize that we also need to showcase how incredible these guns shoot and the advancements being made in bullet performance with Kyle's bullets. We could do away with shooting at 100 and 200 yards and shoot 5 shots for group only at 300 and 400 yards and have winners at each yardage. This way we could save a lot of time and number crunching, then everyone will have more time shoot steel, Tannerite, practice shooting more targets, or try shooting an egg at 400 yards. These are just some of my thoughts. I know Hank wants everyone to come to the shoot and have a great time. So lets help him with some feedback.
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Post by Hank on Jun 2, 2017 21:49:40 GMT -5
Guys. The last thing I want to do is make it complicated. However we must start shooting groups at 100 yards as several shooter will DQ at 200 and 300. Not taking anything away from them but if we make them start out at 300 yards we just took the fun away from them.
The Kentucky challenge is and has always been for the fun of it. Lets keep it that way. We can make a few classes to separate the big guns from the little guns and that I think would still keep the Kentucky Challenge a fun place to be and a good time. We all are here mostly for the fun and fellowship and I hope to keep things going on the same track.
The shoot has always started mid-day on Friday and ended when ever you wanted to go home on Sunday. There is plenty of time to get in some practice shooting. I actually enjoy Friday as much or more than Saturday, as everyone is just having a good time shooting and eating.
As with every thing in life, things change, we will see changes in the Kentucky Challenge and one of these days we might have to set limits to the amount of shooters we can have, we might have to make it a two or three day event just to accommodate all the shooters. We will continue on and have a great time at every shoot.
P.S. There will be no scope power restrictions in any classes we decide to set up. If you want to shoot an apex with a 8-32 on it, that's ok with me. I have always said, if you can't see it, you can't hit it.
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Post by deadeye on Jun 3, 2017 8:45:03 GMT -5
jmho's
gun classes- separate by weight only or by flat benchrest stock forearm only,so maybe just 2 classes open mz benchrest,open mz.... if you do 2 or more classes the shooter has the option to shoot bench rest class even if the gun is not total classic benchrest.
shoot format-keep what we are doing at all distances & keep the optional sighter boards to each shooters discretion if he choses.
keep the current schedule recognize smallest groups @ each distance scoring @ each distance and overall combined score & overall smallest combined group size as we are currently doing/this has added a dimension that I really like. combined agg best. this is what precision & accuracy along with hunting is all about imo.
scopes- as hank said if you can't see it you are not going to hit it. last fall shoot (2016) even with my benchrest gun with a tactical 3x15 scope & a change to much smaller target dot sizes I was done @ the 200yd line but fought @ 300 & 400yds to just keep it deer vital zone good on paper. leave scopes unlimited.
we all build what we want & there will always be a not perfect level playing field & never will be at any shoot unless conducted inside,conditions change rapidly & all you can do is deal with it the best to your ability. perfect example at last shoot many but not all shot much better @ 300 & 400 //this was due to the wind laying somewhat during many shooting strings.
Wind Flags- Yours Truly placed those at last shoot to my disadvantage or any right handed person,you had to come off gun & look over then back on gun & by then sometimes conditions changed & often as I was watching many strings shot with wind changing. I finally just started reading the long grass near the target if there was some.
next shoot I will try to fit wind flags at all distance on left & right of each target to remedy that problem.
Targets, the bigger orange dots are a must @ 300 & 400 for some & if mirage is heavy the small dots will be difficult to manage for some. thinking slight graduated dot size for each distance beyond 100yds.
Never thought in my wildest dreams I would type this! at Kentucky challenge I'm just happy with a Participation Trophy!
DE
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Post by Richard on Jun 3, 2017 15:59:38 GMT -5
Realistically, by the name of the event: "Kentucky Challenge" There needs to be some sort of a challenge or the name should be changed to the Kentucky Shoot? To me, part of the fun is seeing what my rifle/ability can do in comparison to other rifles of "relatively" equal quality/weight and their trigger puller. It seems to me that (and that remains to be seen on Hillbill's survey) that the guns will fall into about three catagories. TOP BREAK design, general hunting type rifles with unaltered round forend stocks weighing up to approximately 12 - 13 lbs. and then those over 13 lbs that are shot mostly as bench guns or "blind" guns (carry out to a blind on a four wheeler and set up on a stable rest). I would also specify calibers of .40 and larger since this is what most hunt with and what most states allow for hunting....(yes there are a few where smaller or sub calibers can be used but by and large "most" have caliber restrictions) But then we have what I would like to refer to as experimental guns. Case in point being Phil's rifle (not sure of any others-maybe Bill .375?). We saw what that .30 can do with 26 shots. Yes, Phil is a good shooter but probably 10 or 15 other members here could produce similar results with that type of rifle. Now do we see 10 or 15 people here building and shooting these sub calibers? Obviously not. So I am just curious if members want to come, knowing they have little chance of being competitive???
Does this sound like I am being mean spirited? I am not, but I am being realistic. I am not being unrealistic in that I have no problem competing against Hank with his 32 pound cyclops since I know that on any given yardage I can be a contender. Sure people could build similar rifles and be competitive but how many would do so just for one or two events (which are informal) a year.
I applaud Phil for what he is doing and there is no doubt he and his rifles are super accurate, just not in the same class as the more common .40/.45's. There is no reason why Phil can't compete with a .40 or .45 and bring his .30 or .270 along for demonstration purposes until such time as there are enough shooters with similar rifles to have their own class? As I indicated in the other post, I would voice my opinion.
Moving on to the nature of targets? I definitely think we should stick with same format of shooting for score and group at all four yardages. Personally, I would like to introduce 5 shots into the group with one sighter on an adjacent target.
Here is another thought.........Why not have a modest wager for small group each yardage? I am thinking $20 per class...........NOT MANDATORY TO PARTICIPATE! It has nothing to do with who gets the smallest group.......only to those that put up the money. We do it at our 600 yard bench rest matches for both light and heavy gun class. There has often been the person who shoots the small group but did not put money in the pot.......OH Well? Just a fun thing. So at each of the four yardages you would have the opportunity to win $5.00 X the number of shooters who put up $20.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jun 3, 2017 16:21:50 GMT -5
Just a thought here for a fun class event. A shoot your friends gun shoot. We all put our names in a hat and draw to see who's gun we would shoot. The owner of the gun would set it up just like he was going shoot....his rest and complete setup and load it and just step away and let you do the trigger work. The name drawn would be the shooter only. Kind of like an unknown hired gun thing. Sounds like fun to me Drop I am sure there are several people who could make my guns shine better than I can...lol
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jun 3, 2017 16:42:33 GMT -5
Not making any judgements at all here. But should we evaluate what rules and regulations could lead to in the Kentucky challenge? What effects will it have on the event further down the road? It's always been a "run what you brung" affair. By dividing the shooters up I think we should evaluate the long term effects. Yes there are those of us who don't really care. But with rules and regulations and classes Put in effect ...there will be someone somewhere down the road who calls foul. And then someone has to step up and make a judgement call. And we might lose a friend over it. And then how will it effect youth? Or brand new people interested in getting in the sport? Will they shy away from this type of event. What ever choices that are made ....unfortunately there will be after shock effects.As I said ...I am not condemning nor condoning either side of the coin. Just hoping that it doesn't cost us any friends. Because to me The Kentucky Challenge is all about Friends, Fellowship, Fun, and breaking bread together. The shooting is just one thing that we have in common that brought us together the first time. Again my friends it's just a thought that is in my mind 12PTDroptine
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Post by Richard on Jun 3, 2017 16:51:29 GMT -5
Russell...........You make a point but by the same token, there are members who might be intimidated by some of the high dollar benchrest type guns that show up? Leading them to decline coming? Whereas if they can shoot in class with similar rifles they would be more inclined to participate? Just my thoughts?
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Post by bestill458 on Jun 4, 2017 11:43:46 GMT -5
Rules and regulations suck. Compete against yourself and personally i want to against the best and at some point if i feel i need to win i would build or have built a winning rifle and try for the top.
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Post by linebaugh on Jun 4, 2017 12:01:49 GMT -5
Rules and regulations suck. Compete against yourself and personally i want to against the best and at some point if i feel i need to win i would build or have built a winning rifle and try for the top. Agreed. I go into every shoot planning to win no matter how the chips are stacked. When I fail I re-think what caused the problems and or monopolize on others success. I shoot with many people who are content where they are and that's cool I guess but you have to remember being content means you have no reason to advance. I will probably never make it to a shoot but I can see both sides of the coin plainly. I GET the classes idea because not everyone can afford to play on the same level. That said keep in mind innovation stems from competition and trying to be the best. Rules were meant to be broken or pushed to the limit as far as I am concerned. If everybody wanted to be content we would all still be shooting black powder 50-54 calibers and sidelocks.
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Post by hammer on Jun 4, 2017 13:42:17 GMT -5
I posted this also in the 26 shot group initially but think it should be here also.
Guys, I'm back. I need to apologize to everyone that I upset by quitting the board. After talking things out with Hank I realized that I had jumped to a conclusion that I should not have. I would also like to thank everyone for the kind words and hopes that I would reconsider and come back.
The reason I quit was when Hank posted in the gun weights thread and said "We will also talk about a sub-caliber class as this is becoming more and more popular, so we might draw a line at smaller than 45 caliber will be in it's own class. This would include everything less than a .450 diameter bullet," and I jumped to the conclusion that the sub-calibers were going to be separated by class, however the final decision had not been made.
I posted before that I think separating classes by caliber was wrong and I still believe that. To me it is trying to rig the match. Personally I have no interest in shooting in the competition I'm just not into it. I have been to 5 Kentucky challenges and have competed in two, the first one and last fall's match with my 270 cal. and the only reason I decided at the last minute to shoot the competition was not to win but show how well these sub-calibers can shoot, and I was never planning to enter the competition again with any caliber. The truth is, for me it was not enjoyable at all competing and unfortunately I won in group. I'll just leave it at that.
I want everyone to know where and why I stand on the sub-caliber rules debate. All of the centerfire matches that I am familiar with do not determine classes by caliber but by weight. So when proposed rule changes come along that differ from what has been the standard in shooting sports for a very long time it looks like the system is being rigged, especially after something new comes along and wins, and I firmly believe that. I never intended to shoot in any other matches so if the sub-caliber class is created it will not affect me, but what about others in the future?
So lets hear more input everyone, so Hank can make a decision, and the majority will decide.
Phil
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Post by hillbill on Jun 4, 2017 15:53:16 GMT -5
Glad you reconsidered Phil, you are a valued member and friend.
I have purposely stayed out of the rules debate because I come to have fun, I know I will never be at the top of the heap so rule changes are not a big deal to me but here goes.
I am of the opinion that we should separate classes by weigh only, many run high power scopes on lighter guns and hunt with them so I would be inclined to say whatever scope you have on your gun. If we tell someone they can't run a whatever power scope in a certain weight class and they already have a higher power on their gun what will likely be the outcome? they will likely stay home. exactly what we don't want to happen.
As far as caliber? how many sub cals do we have? I think we need to throw all calibers in the same class simply because of numbers.
We want guys to participate, that's exactly what weight classes are about, some that have a 10 lb gun will refuse to shoot it because they feel out classed by a 15 lb rig? we don't want that to happen.
I have seen guys come and when they see all the hardware lined up they feel intimidated and decline to shoot, we want everyone that comes to participate. this thing has evolved a great deal since the first shoot, some guys are shooting benchrest stocks sitting on top of good quality front and rear rests, even the guns have changed.
bottom line is, if you come and shoot you will learn a lot about the process and a lot about yourself as a shooter. this will never be a true bench rest competition, the guns they shoot and what we shoot are just too different but the bench shooters like Richard, Phil, markb316 and Deadeye teach us a lot because a good deal is relative between the two.
What we want to do is make it fun for everyone no matter what gun you shoot. I like the idea of a long range off hand steel match after the competition, maybe a friendly wager for participants?
Any ideas that will make things fun and get guys involved? throw them out there!
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