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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 1, 2016 9:02:34 GMT -5
So to insure obturation How would 5gn of red dot work with 3031? Any adverse side effects? Any drawbacks?
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Post by linebaugh on Dec 1, 2016 9:55:59 GMT -5
My first question to duplexing is always WHY?
If you have igintion problems that require duplexing you probably need to address the ignition problem and not use a bandaid approach.
3031 ignites as easy or easier than 4198 IMO. Both will reliably ignite in cold weather without fail given a sound ignition source and a clean plug.
If you think you need the bump up for bullet obturation then go back to a faster powder. By adding 5gr of red dot you are essentially creating a faster burn rate so what's the point in using a slower powder?
I don't think booster/duplex loads have been proven any more accurate than straight loads of powder so I don't see that argunent holding any water.
I would suggest you forget the duplex all together and simplify your hunting/shooting.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 1, 2016 10:12:25 GMT -5
I have never had a FTF other than at rhe range when I had a couple of oil fouled shots. Popped a cuople primers but that wasnt enough. I like my duplex loads and my single loads also. Never had any ignition problems. Was just wondering about enhancing obturation somewhat. So we can curb the poor ignition problems from here on out.
Thank You
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 10:38:56 GMT -5
If lrmp system, I wouldn't go any faster than n110 or 4759 as a booster.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 11:19:11 GMT -5
Couple weeks ago I was shooting single load 70 grains 4198 with 300 grain SST my accuracy was terrible. I believe a duplex load is needed with heavier jacketed bullets for better obturating.
I'm going out this morning right now to test my theory I'll give a follow-up report when I'm done.
FYI I did have misfires and I have a very good sealing g209 system I do believe Hank's system is a better system for single loads 4209 systems I just don't feel you will get good ignition with straight loads. Along with those that are having good ignition with straight loads and the 209 system I believe most of those people are full forming. Just my two cents worth
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Post by schunter on Dec 1, 2016 11:39:51 GMT -5
I don't think there is a need to duplex in Jeff's system as far as ignition. Maybe for better obturation on thicker jacket bullets???
I duplex in both my 209 guns with Savage breech plugs for insurance.
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Post by Richard on Dec 1, 2016 11:44:39 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with duplexing. I have used it successfully in both the 209 and he HIS ignition systems. I was also thinking along the same lines as droptine just to see the effects on velocity and accuracy. If I can get the same velocity with say............80 gr. of 3031 and 5 gr. of Clays or RD with similar accuracy and velocity, why not? If it uses less powder. On the other hand, my Clays/ 4198 is working very well. I am also experiencing some low ES's which is also a good sign.
Experimenting with different loads and powders is all part of the fun with these muzzle loaders for me? Always looking for a better mouse trap, so to speak. I am running a .026" bushing (3/8" long) ahead of Hank's 1/4" long bushing that has about a .039" hole in it. Why? Because I bought 4 of them and they had worked for me in the past with the 209 system. I have been tempted to pick up a pound of 3031 and just play with duplexing. (I still have about a tenth of an old can and past results were not encouraging) Some say to use 4759 or N-110 as a booster but then I was also told that Clays or RD would not work in the HIS ignition system................but it does-for me? Most of the time we are not comparing apples to apples. Your gun, your system, your barrel length, your bullet to barrel fit, temperature etc. One thing is for sure, if your bullet fit happens to be on the loose side and your out in the cold and that "once in a life time buck" presents itself for a shot?.............I will take my duplex any day. Just my opinion? Everyone has to test and be confident with their load.
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Post by deadeer on Dec 1, 2016 12:24:33 GMT -5
Insurance in cold temps when hunting is my reason for duplexing.
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 1, 2016 12:44:22 GMT -5
True about insurance.....an ounce of prevention.....I was concerned about ifnition and obturation since I have never used 3031. But with new things on the horizon....wanting more speed
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Post by hando31 on Dec 1, 2016 13:13:39 GMT -5
Been playing with 3031 myself Russell, all straight charges so far with Kyle's 325's, working well and accuracy is extremely good so far out of my gun, hopefully works for you too. At the end of the day each person has to be confident in their own equipment and set it up the way they feel most comfortable, and like Richard said , always good to have an excuse to go shootin'
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Post by Richard on Dec 1, 2016 13:13:56 GMT -5
Russ................that is why we have these great laser rangefinders and they added those "clicks" on your elevation turret!  |
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Post by schunter on Dec 1, 2016 13:59:55 GMT -5
Russ has a need for speeeeeeeeeeeed!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 15:25:59 GMT -5
He's got the gun for it!
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Post by dannoboone on Dec 1, 2016 15:31:27 GMT -5
True about insurance.....an ounce of prevention.....I was concerned about ifnition and obturation since I have never used 3031. But with new things on the horizon....wanting more speed Drop What weight bullets are you using? This may be apples to oranges, since the barrel I use it in is 28" .451 bore: 10gr N110/75gr 3031, 275gr MH, 3010fps. That proved a little too much for the old shoulder, and backed the 3031 down to 70gr which was manageable. I didn't write down the speed, but it was around 2900fps. Groups were great! |
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 1, 2016 15:43:10 GMT -5
True about insurance.....an ounce of prevention.....I was concerned about ifnition and obturation since I have never used 3031. But with new things on the horizon....wanting more speed Drop What weight bullets are you using? This may be apples to oranges, since the barrel I use it in is 28" .451 bore: 10gr N110/75gr 3031, 275gr MH, 3010fps. That proved a little too much for the old shoulder, and backed the 3031 down to 70gr which was manageable. I didn't write down the speed, but it was around 2900fps. Groups were great! I am hitting 2845fps with 6gn red dot under 67gn H4198 smooth formed 300gn accumax. Gettg things lined out for the 325 aeromax |
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Post by kbrezlin on Dec 1, 2016 15:46:29 GMT -5
I was also initially concerned about ignition with 3031 and had looked at duplex inn. There are a couple TG traces for duplexes out there. 28 Brux, 1.25" for 5" straight taper to 1" at the muzzle, HIS ignition, 325 grain accumax. After I froze the gun and primed module for 26 hours with it charged with 85 grains of 3031 and it went bang with no hesitation I'm feeling OK for the 7-8 hours it will be in a stand. I shoot it every night when I come out.
As far as accuracy with 91 grains I have shot 2 groups just under 2 inches at 300 yards. So I feel pretty confident I'm getting enough obturation with out the booster. I am using a 0.040 bushing.
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Post by elkman1310 on Dec 1, 2016 17:33:25 GMT -5
This why I made my other post using straight IMR 3031 there is simply no reason to duplex and gun if your gun doesn't shoot straight powder charges you either have a poor ignition system or a barrel that is actually to smooth or your not sizing the bullet correctly. 90grs didn't shoot I could tell that by only firing two shots anything above 92 to 95 grs I believe should be very accurate. And if your in need for more speed you could go a little higher than 95grs of IMR 3031 I doubt if I will go any higher. I didn't see any signs of pressure on the primers so I know I could go up a little more and probably get to 3,000 fps with a 300gr bullet.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 17:42:20 GMT -5
My McGowan barrel is choked so I have to size on the smaller size then knurl back up for decent loading pressure. This could be my issue with single loads. I know the brux has a better barrel and isn't choked at the muzzle so when you size your sizing for the whole barrel unlike mine where I gave to size a tad looser so I can get my bullet ask the way down.
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Post by linebaugh on Dec 1, 2016 18:53:22 GMT -5
12ptdrop,
I'm not trying to be rude but have you tried straight loads of 3031 yet? The only reason I ask is this may be a case of finding a solution to a problem that does not exist.
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Post by elkman1310 on Dec 1, 2016 22:28:25 GMT -5
A lot of problems can be traced back to the barrel itself. Every barrel I get from Shilen, Douglas or X-Caliber all are first cleaned then bore scoped then I size a bullet and push it through the entire length of the barrel. If I find the barrel has any loose or tight spots I will reject that barrel. You can live with a barrel that is 1/10th larger at the muzzle . You really want a good fitting breech plug end.
I have been pretty lucky that I only had one Shilen barrel that had a tight spot half way down the barrel. I laped that section out and the barrel shot great. It only takes one land to be off
.0001 to cause problems. I also don't believe in having supper smooth lapped barrels for muzzleloaders. If the bullet can grab onto the barrel quicker it will shoot better. IMO
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