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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 20, 2020 11:07:38 GMT -5
45cal is pretty simple and well documented. Sabot loads far exceed good old MLII book loads and are great for beginners too. Powders that work are abundant and some are really cheap like Reloder7 and 4198. Some of the new 40cal bullets give sabot loads more hope but sabotless flat out works once you get the hang of it.
As another "ShowME", the 40cal is appealing but i got my feet wet on 50s and 45s first. I actually still hunt with my 50 unless im smokin. 45cal SMLs make wonderful conical shooters too. You could do the same thing with the 40 if you wished.
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Post by Richard on Jan 20, 2020 13:58:43 GMT -5
But not saboted!
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 20, 2020 15:34:45 GMT -5
Is it somewhat safe to assume that 405Win data rated at 44kpsi or less will be close to 40cal SML if i was only after similar speed? Both 4198 and 10x are listed in rather small amounts.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 20, 2020 16:28:40 GMT -5
Most times we are running less pressure due to the throat engagement in a center fire VS a smooth form land rider but there are no set rules, without a pressure trace we can't be sure?
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Post by educatedidiot on Jan 20, 2020 23:28:28 GMT -5
Is it somewhat safe to assume that 405Win data rated at 44kpsi or less will be close to 40cal SML if i was only after similar speed? Both 4198 and 10x are listed in rather small amounts.
When comparing cartridge loads to SML loads, remember that cartridge loads can be 80 percent cartridge fill all the way up to a compressed charge. IF the cartridge load in question is at 100 percent fill, that load should be safe in a SML and actually should be a little lower. IF the cartridge load in question is at say a 90 percent cartridge fill, it will be higher when the bullet is on the powder in an SML.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 21, 2020 15:18:29 GMT -5
Of course. When i look at that type of load data i always see if the compression or % filled is listed. H4895 in this case for 405Win seems to always be listed as compressed or 100%. So is RL15 and Varget on the data Barnes lists. Some powders are not but the peak is also much lower for some of them.
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Post by jims on Jan 21, 2020 21:15:34 GMT -5
One of our posters I think plans to do some testing with the .40 soon. If you can hold up a bit it might be beneficial to see what that produces.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 21, 2020 21:19:56 GMT -5
There will be several new .40s coming alive soon.
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Post by joelmoney on Jan 22, 2020 0:36:05 GMT -5
Order everything now including a .40 and .45 barrel. Once you have all the parts build the .40. A 45 Brux barrel is a good place to start on your second build.
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Post by sew on Jan 22, 2020 9:59:42 GMT -5
There’s quite a wide variance in our uses for our rifles. Some, like me, may change our expectations for a given gun after we see its potential. Since my 40 has demonstrated performance I never thought possible, my anticipated usage has changed for it. Up from 250-300 yards to at least 400. To me, it seems that for hunting out to 400 yards, the 40 holds the advantage.
I expect that there’s a limit on diameter to length ratio for optimum accuracy depending on a lot of factors. If true, this would likely differ for smooth verses bore sized bullets. Whatever, for most hunting purposes , 40 seems to hold a # of advantages. I plan to be doing a lot of testing over the next few months with a fairly diverse selection of bullets.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 22, 2020 10:55:45 GMT -5
45cal SML was a no brainer. .450x.458 is more or less the standard for many. 40cal is not so cut and dried. You have 408Cheytac .400x.408, 405Win .402x.411ish and the plethora of 416s .408x.416 to choose from. Plus you have the 41cal also which i find interesting with the shallower groove than the 405Win. I realize the 408 has sorta been the gold standard for 40 SML (more or less) but that is not always the case anymore. Years ago Doc Whites 40cals were a .410x.416 1-16 twist. That is pretty much a big boomer only when we are talking about bullets for SML use. Them Swinglock 416s were bruisers too.
Looking for cartridge load data for comparisons is a fuster cluck unless you move upto a 300gr bullet or dem big boomas. Im hunting deer at fairly close ranges. Not sniping bad guys at 1000 meters or hunting cape buffalo.
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Post by sew on Jan 22, 2020 11:19:28 GMT -5
What is the most common 40 now? Mine seems to have worked out well as it is.
I looked at all available from PacNor at the time and decided to order the 6 land 16 twist as opposed to the 8 land 13 twist. PacNor would prepare the barrel for a drop in for the 10ML2 or other rifles (for a charge). I would have preferred a 6 land 13 twist but no such animal existed. I chose 6 land, in a premium select barrel, because I thought the bullet could obturate better with the wider spacing. There were no sizing dies at the time, that I knew of. Knurled 200 XTPs, SSTs and 175/195 Barnes/wool wads shot fairly well. Now, with smooth sizing dies and the comparatively large selection of dedicated 402 bullets available, the 400/408 seems like a good choice. 16 twist, for my usage seems to have worked out ok also.
However, if I ever have a 40 built again, the Rock Creek 13.2 or others would be considered.
Now a question. Is there an advantage to a full formed usage of a 451 barrel? I’m only aware of the RB built gun that somebody bought but have read no results. Years ago, the consensus of opinion was that full formed would be more accurate and eventually replace smooth sizing . This certainly hasn’t been the case from what I can tell. Back to the question: Is there any advantage to full formed shooting of a 451 barrel?
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Post by Richard on Jan 22, 2020 11:56:44 GMT -5
Not with good bullets that are capable of obturating with the proper loads. My bullets exit the barrel FULL FORMED as evidence by recovered projectiles! Unless you are shooting wimpy loads with thick/hard jackets, I see no advantage to full forming in the .45. And Doc...........that .45 is easily a 400 yard rifle for deer hunting!
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 22, 2020 12:24:13 GMT -5
I think it was Doug (The Schwartz) that had a 40 built with a 1-15? Im not sure which dimensions he got though. I just seem to remember a sort of odd twist was selected. I think he was shooting bullets from 225gr to 275gr so a 1-15 should be plenty fast even for lower speed loads. He may have posted shooting some heavier but i dont remember. I think that weight range is pretty solid as far as most deer hunting goes and the bullets are reasonably priced. BC is more than adequate for extended ranges for the vast majority of people.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 22, 2020 13:14:59 GMT -5
Twist rates on the .40s vary, I have 2- 13.2 twist but have built some in 15 twist which I deem good for all around use, several have used 14 twist with good results, I have 2- 13.75 barrels on the bench now for the 350s out long.
If i remember correctly Doug's barrel is 16 twist? could be wrong though, it shoots very well whatever it is.
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Post by dannoboone on Jan 22, 2020 13:37:32 GMT -5
Now a question. Is there an advantage to a full formed usage of a 451 barrel? I’m only aware of the RB built gun that somebody bought but have read no results. Years ago, the consensus of opinion was that full formed would be more accurate and eventually replace smooth sizing . This certainly hasn’t been the case from what I can tell. Back to the question: Is there any advantage to full formed shooting of a 451 barrel? Sure seems like someone (Hillbill?) stated that they made a few with a .451 barrel and that they were accurate? A few years ago, I put one on a 10MLII. It has always been "deer accurate" but never competition accurate, with groups being 1-1 1/2" except for thin jacketed bullets that I will not hunt with. To be fair, that could be more due to leakage around the primers than anything else. The "fix" may be in but that's a long story for another time.
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Post by sew on Jan 22, 2020 14:43:42 GMT -5
Not with good bullets that are capable of obturating with the proper loads. My bullets exit the barrel FULL FORMED as evidence by recovered projectiles! Unless you are shooting wimpy loads with thick/hard jackets, I see no advantage to full forming in the .45. And Doc...........that .45 is easily a 400 yard rifle for deer hunting! “Be aware of the man with one gun: he likely knows how to use it”. I’m not that guy!! I want two 400 yard guns! I have no doubt that the Rem/Brux 45 is highly capable of more than I am. The recoil with 72g H4198/275 AccuMax is very docile compared to what I expected, and I highly doubt that the 300 AeroMax/70g H4198 will be any problem whatsoever. Hope to test next week. So much of what I and likely some others have thought, has been proven wrong when serious riflemen got involved. Much of our errors came from wimpy loads and antiquated ignition systems. Some of these are:1) trying to keep a consistent barrel condition by lightly cleaning between each shot (The answer: let it foul to a consistent state and size to that fouled state. Don’t clean), 2) duplex is more accurate, generally unless using a hotter(faster) powder load that will quickly obturate. Modern ignition systems seem to have a much faster pressure rise vs 209/conventional BPs, 3) Wads make for more pressure and greater accuracy. Only with wimpy loads. Wads hurt accuracy with adequately pressured, quick pressure rise loads (why I still use duplex with my comparatively hot loads , for a 10ML2 retrofit), and the subject at hand - smooth vs full formed —> 4) smokeless MLing didn’t go full formed as anticipated because quick obturation alleviated the need. Can fullformed be as accurate or more? I don’t know. The point is to not get stuck in old paths that might be leading to lesser destinations. YES RICHARD, I fully intend to make my first 400 yd+ MLing kill with the 45. I really like your rifle! And one with the 40. It will start varmint hunting next week, weather permitting. Trying for a 400+ yard coyote.
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Post by jims on Jan 22, 2020 15:14:29 GMT -5
Not to get off the subject but I have had I think a .444-.452 barrel for several years on a Sav MLII action and full form die. I have never shot it. The prior owner said it never shot the way he wanted and I have just never tried it out. Maybe this Spring.
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Post by sew on Jan 22, 2020 15:51:14 GMT -5
Not to get off the subject but I have had I think a .444-.452 barrel for several years on a Sav MLII action and full form die. I have never shot it. The prior owner said it never shot the way he wanted and I have just never tried it out. Maybe this Spring. Jim, I just keep learning about guns that you have that I didn’t know about. You’ve never mentioned that one that I can remember.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 22, 2020 17:14:48 GMT -5
I have done several pistol bore full form guns, most shot really well but it's just easier to smooth form with the bullets we have these days, I have done a lot of full form with the .40s as well, IMO the .40 is a better candidate for full forming.
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