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Post by caseless on Jan 16, 2020 13:13:06 GMT -5
Entertaining the idea of buying my first smokeless ml 0 experience with smokeless powder other than what was in the cartridges I bought I have lots of experience in black and suds but this will be all new for me I am very cautious about this and safety is number one with me but I intend to buy one time and would like to safely get the most bang for the buck all information would be greatly appreciated I may hunt with this rifle but that is not going to be its major use
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Post by dannoboone on Jan 16, 2020 14:03:44 GMT -5
It very much depends on your state regulations or any other state you may end up hunting in. There's ONE reason I do not have a .40....Iowa state regs do not allow deer hunting with that caliber.
Otherwise, it comes down to personal preference. There are now many great bullets for either caliber.
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Post by joelmoney on Jan 16, 2020 18:54:42 GMT -5
I have a .40 and like it a lot. I would recommend a 45. The 45 has been around much longer and lots more information out there for the .45. Only way I’d recommend a .40 is for those that it’s legal or you are really looking for long range shooting.
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Post by Richard on Jan 16, 2020 19:17:48 GMT -5
Definitely .45? You can shoot .40 bullets with sabos or sabot-less with .452 bullets sized.
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Post by caseless on Jan 16, 2020 19:21:33 GMT -5
I am in Missouri we are legal with 40 cal and I have enough black powder and sub guns in various calibers to cover any regulations in the USA for hunting this rifle would be primarily for hobby shooting and yes if I have what it takes long range I am recently retired and I need something else to do other than work 😁
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Post by hillbill on Jan 16, 2020 20:16:22 GMT -5
40s are good if you like adventure, 45s are better if you don't want to tinker. I don't currently own a .45 but I'm sure I will again. 45s are easy to get to shoot very accurately with proven loads that many guys are using. 40s are still spreading their wings but I really like the 2 I have.
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Post by joelmoney on Jan 16, 2020 22:17:44 GMT -5
Caseless the 40 dose sound like it may fit you.
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Post by sew on Jan 16, 2020 22:30:14 GMT -5
I live in Arkansas where 40 cal is legal for ALL hunting that allows a MLer or CF. Small game up thru 40, and large game 40 cal and up. Now, that very high quality, hi BC 40 cal bullets are available, 40 cal is my preference.
I do not have the experience nor skills of most people on this board, Therefore, take that into account in evaluating what I post.
From a theoretical standpoint, just what can a 45 cal do out to 500-600+ yards than a 40 can’t do equally well? Actually, I’ve come up with 4 things. 1) Make a 45 cal hole instead of just a 40 cal hole. 2) Have more recoil for the same velocity and trajectory 3) Have even more excess energy at virtually at any range. 4) Use more powder to do the above
I just bought an excellent 45. The loads are already worked up. Everything works. 72g H-4198/278 AccuMax, 70g H-4198 /300 AeroMax. Sub- 1/2 MOA for 3-shot groups. No load work up .
Worked up my own 40 cal 225/228g AccuMax loads , sub-MOA 3-shot with 10x scope. Hopefully better when a 6x24 is on it like 45 has. I think the 40 would be more enjoyable . I know that I’m going against the tide.
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Post by hillbill on Jan 17, 2020 4:59:29 GMT -5
I too can use the .40 in most of the places I hunt, Tn, Ky and Ohio,this summer I plan to explore the real or perceived advantages? of the .40 caliber in the two areas I feel it has an advantage over the .45, lighter bullets (250-275s) and the high BC heavy stuff (350s).
Hopefully before the Polarbear shoot I will be finished with my light build which should weigh around 8 lbs unscoped. It will be a 24" barreled 700 based platform designed to be a comfortable carry gun yet still 400 yard+ capable with tolerable recoil? I hope to post up some pictures soon.
The opposite end of the spectrum will be the 1760 gun (20+ lbs) for the 350 Aeromax @ 31-3200 Fps. both guns are outside the norm and I realize that but I like to explore so we will see where it goes?
I already have a light carry .40 with the custom barreled Apex and I love it BUT it is very temper-mental when shooting off of a rest, I have found that I have to use a shooting bag and fully support the gun forward of the trigger guard for good repeatable accuracy, the new gun should be more user friendly from the bench? we shall see? I like to get out and plink at times and the new gun should fit the bill.
I have taken a lot of deer in the past several years with these SMLs and I must admit they are WAY overkill but I have to say so far in the last 3 years the 40s have proven to be STONE DEAD KILLERS, more effective than a .45? likely just coincidence or blind luck but certainly no less effective.
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Post by schunter on Jan 17, 2020 9:16:31 GMT -5
If it were mainly for hunting and shooting a few times a year to check your zero I would say .45. Since you say hunting will not be its major use I would lean towards the .40 for many of the reasons listed above. I know I have not shot my .45 since I got my .40. That is the reason the .45 will probably go down the road.
If you shoot a lot the bullets for the .40 are cheaper too.
Is the .40 that much better than the .45? Nope, but I just prefer the .40.
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Post by Richard on Jan 17, 2020 11:52:16 GMT -5
Looking at #2 on SEW's post, recoil will be the same if bullet weight and velocity are equal. Trajectory might be better in the .40 if the BC is higher.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 17, 2020 12:34:45 GMT -5
If you can get the same FPS from the 40cal using less powder the recoil will be less. Probably not a lot less. Probably depends a bit on what MV you are after. I dont need a 300-400yard rifle and i dont even have a range i can shoot that far for recreation. Those ranges want a small fortune in annual dues for the small amount of times i would want to drive that far to use them.
BUT a 40cal is still legal here and i still want one someday. Even if its just a smoker. Its pretty hard to get a 40cal over 250gr to shoot worth a hoot in a 45x40 sabot. Ive always wanted to be able to shoot a 275gr-300gr 40 at modest velocity like at 405Win speeds.
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Post by sew on Jan 17, 2020 22:54:55 GMT -5
Looking at #2 on SEW's post, recoil will be the same if bullet weight and velocity are equal. Trajectory might be better in the .40 if the BC is higher. # 2 on SEW’s post read “velocity and trajectory”, not “weight and velocity” which means the weight has to be less if the bullets have basically the same profile.
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Post by Richard on Jan 17, 2020 22:59:34 GMT -5
Yup, misread it!
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 18, 2020 11:11:33 GMT -5
Doug has a prototype Knight smoker he has been testing for competition. They have a max powder limitation so the guys have been trying to squeak as much MV as possible. Well his 40cal will shoot the same weight bullet faster than his 45 with the same amount of powder. Quite a bit faster too. He is more or less getting MLII book load speeds for 250-300gr bullets in a 40cal smoker.
It makes me wonder which smokeless powder would also produce these rather modest speeds with a 275-300gr bullet in a 40cal sabotless.
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Post by sew on Jan 18, 2020 16:53:53 GMT -5
The reason he’s getting so much faster is because he has so much more pressure. I assume this is the case, especially if he’s shooting the same powder.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 19, 2020 11:35:16 GMT -5
Of course it increases pressure but there is no rule about pressure, only max amount of BH209 that is allowed. I thought it was a rather creative way to achieve the goal. I also thought it interesting it shoots so well and at speeds similar to a MLII but with a higher BC/SD bullet.
My only complaint is the price of BH209 so the ultimate goal would be a smokeless powder that yields similar speed at reasonable pressure. I simply dont need performance approaching the "416s" or "408" but shooting a 40cal with a much higher sectional density would be nice. Bullets made for 405Win (for example) can be had for well under a buck a pop. They will plow through a deer like its nothing but that is pretty much a full form solution unless you go upto a 416 barrel and try to smooth size the .411 bullet. 408 barrels are obviously the easiest solution and the only real negative is if you want a bullet over 200gr its pretty much a custom bullet or you are back to full forming. Fury has brought the cost down to almost OEM bullet maker pricing for his 402s and the weight selection is fine too.
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Post by sew on Jan 19, 2020 13:51:51 GMT -5
The amounts of BH 209 given , from BH’s own website, are all for a 50 cal barrel with various bullets, both bore sized, 45and 40 saboted. When those powder amounts are used in a 45 and a 40, the pressures will rise considerably, even with the same bullet. Of course, the velocity of the same bullet out of a 40 sabotless vs a velocity saboted load with the same bullet will be less, as will the pressure.
I’m not sure that there is “no rule about pressure” as all loadings given are predicated on a 50 cal barrel. Since I’m in no man’s land working up loads with my 209 ignited 40, and a retro-fit at that, I really consider powder speed, powder weight, bullet weight, achieved MV to back in my estimated pressure. Using a duplex (209 ignition and bore sized being factors) , pretty well eliminates my need to update my QL/QT disc I had.
Just some thoughts.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 19, 2020 22:38:23 GMT -5
They have cartridge data too with % of compression and pressures. Friendship has no rule regarding peak pressure for the inline shoots but BH209 is limited to 84gr by weight. It dont matter what the caliber. They are all 84grW max for BH209. They are quite specific about it but other powders are per rifle manufactures max loads. So you cannot bring a custom and shoot more BH209 regardless what is in your manual. You can not bring a new Paramount and shoot 105grW (150grV) even though its rated that high. While its not on Westerns site they have approved loads upto 150grV in the Paramount 45 1-22.
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Post by 10gaauto on Jan 20, 2020 10:22:23 GMT -5
yes if I have what it takes long range I am recently retired and I need something else to do other than work 😁 Considering hunting isn't the major use.... Long range and recreational shooting.... Keeping you busy = go 40!
The 45 is so well developed and explored they are pretty much plug-n-play.
My experience and opinion. Others will differ. 10
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