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Post by Richard on Jan 15, 2020 12:03:43 GMT -5
So, Monday was not a great day for shooting as we had to contend with fog and rain, with a little wind/breeze mixed in. We also wanted to get a good zero and test various .22 L R ammo for an up coming 100 yard UBR match at our club on Saturday (weather permitting) On to the barrel cleaning….In the past, I have always talked about my very limited barrel clean on the Brux SML. Simply running a damp 2” patch in and out (both sides of the patch) on a .38 cal. bronze brush, followed by a similar procedure with another dry patch and that’s it! No complaints about how the barrel was/is shooting but, for a change, I thought I would (as I occasionally do) run a JB patch in and out a few times and then use my Hawkeye Borescope to check on the interior of the barrel. After cleaning the JB out, the borescope showed that the lands were now clean but the groves had traces of copper and carbon showing. The center of the groves showed some shinny clean metal but not the groves. So, next up, I took an old, what I believe to be a 20 gauge bronze brush and coated it with Montana Extreme Copper Cream and made several passes in and out, then patched out. A view with the scope now showed a barrel that was “clean as a whistle!” Not a trace of any fouling whatsoever! Note: This tells me that my bullets are obturating as the copper is in the groves and not just on the lands! The question now is, how long will or how many shots will it take to get back shooting or, will it shoot good right from the get go? So, Monday morning I got to finds out and the results can be seen on my data sheet. The bullet I chose to foul the barrel was a generic Speer 300 gr. soft point. I had shot them before and they were never especially accurate; but OK for fouling the barrel. As you can see, they did not do all that bad? Not as good as the XTP’s or Kyle’s bullets but pretty darn good for a “nothing” bullet. With a velocity of 2977 and a ES of 10! Next I went to the 290 Barnes TEZ which had, in the past, given me some good groups with different powders but shot them with the same load as above? (10/65 –N-110/H-4198). They managed three in .643 but five in 1.3”? Not too good! I again tried them with 73 gr. of N-120 and they did not like that. So, dealing with the rain, I wanted to get in at least one group at 300 yards with the 353 grain AeroMax hard core and 91 gr. of 8208,; so, I shot a sighter at 100 and then one at 300 before shooting a three shot group. While not great, considering the deteriorating conditions, (hard to see the target and intermittent wind) a three shot 1.596” group was acceptable. Those three shots averaged 2915 fps with a 10 fps ES. Getting back to the cleaning and how it affected my groups?; all in all, not too bad? Considering the initial bullets I shot were not capable of giving great groups to start with? So, I can’t really say if a “squeaky clean” barrel produces bad groups or does it need to be fouled? In the bench rest game, you will see many shooters cleaning the be-jesus out of their bores in between groups? Why? Maybe their bullets like having the lands/groves “sharp” so the bullet fully engages? Maybe in our game, the bullets like some fouling to better “grab” and create pressure? Kind of hard to say? All I know is the group I shot on that clean barrel was probably no better/worse (with that bullet) than on a fouled barrel. As long as my groups look good?, I will probably do little cleaning! the apartment plot
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Jan 15, 2020 15:17:38 GMT -5
Very interesting find Richard. Who would have thought? Interesting as always Thanks for all you do Richard Drpp
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Post by buckeye68 on Jan 15, 2020 20:17:23 GMT -5
To clean or not to clean..... hmmm
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Post by schunter on Jan 15, 2020 20:52:54 GMT -5
Excellent info Richard. At what point will you check again for copper?
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Post by bkm on Jan 15, 2020 23:15:23 GMT -5
Good information Richard. I guess I’m old school. I believe in removing the copper. With cut rifled barrels ( mainly centerfire ) that i shoot, after the break in process there’s usually very little copper.
After cleaning the barrel to the bare metal , an oily patch and one fouling shot is all that’s needed to get me back to peak performance.
I normally clean centerfire barrels. after 25-50 rds. My Mzl barrels usually get cleaned a little more often as they have a tendency to get harder to push a bullet down the bore.
Thanks for sharing ur findings.
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Post by nick50471 on Jan 16, 2020 9:43:24 GMT -5
last year I did some work with the guys at AB. Bryan and I got into this very topic of to clean or not to clean. He showed me data from a test they did for a military contract they are working on.
The test was for twin bolt rifles in 375EN. Both with new barrels and shooting the same 400gr bullet at above 3000fps. One rifle was cleaned with typical solvents, brushes and patches as needed. When the velocity started to change or the groups started to open up. The second rifle was cleaned with JB every 100 rounds. Both rifles shot very well into the 800-1000 round mark. At around the 1000 mark the first rifles accuracy fell off. at 1400 rounds cleaning the rifle had no affect and the barrel was retired. The rifle that was cleaned every 100 rounds with JB was retired at just over 4k rounds.
This is the only test I've seen with actual documented data. If you would like more information I'm certain Bryan would be happy to show you the data...for a price. He is a shrewd business person.
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Post by 10gaauto on Jan 16, 2020 10:14:38 GMT -5
Question for Nick50417. Which JB?
AND how hard was that bullet and what kind of jacket?
AND what about SML where speed is lower. I don't shoot my SMLs over 2.5K and my smokers don't usually get over 2.1K. Is there any data for that regimen?
Inquiring minds want to know?
I'd hate to think I'm wearing out my barrels in 2 or 3 years.
Any idea of why the barrels so different in lifespan? "Standard" type cleaning not really getting the barrels clean? Or is the procedure really doing the damage to the barrel?
OH man, now I'm glad I have stayed with the sabot loadings. Lower recoil and 3C range is just fine for my hunting and most of my shooting.
Interesting questions, any discussion may bring greater enlightenment.
Safe shooting and hunting to all. 10ga
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Post by Richard on Jan 16, 2020 10:31:19 GMT -5
So, I meant to do this when I put the post together but failed to do so. 2100 shots on this barrel! This morning, I ran my typical 2" damp patch with some non-copper type cleaning solvent in and out the barrel on both sides of the patch, followed by the same procedure with a dry patch. I then bore scoped the barrel. (mind you, this was only after 18 shots) The barrel appeared 99% squeaky clean with just a "hint" of copper on the lands about 4" from the muzzle. I will continue with this procedure and list results in upcoming threads. BTW, in my 6mmBRX Brux barrel, I shoot approximately 65 moly coated shots thru the barrel at every 600 yard match without cleaning. (20 record shots for 4 targets in light gun and the same in heavy gun -----plus sighters---I use the same rifle in both classes as do most competitors). At home, the barrel gets a light JB'ing. It then needs about five or six sighters at the next event to get back shooting. I bought my Hawkeye bore scope about 22 years ago after a friend of mine got one. After viewing my barrel I thought was clean?..............I made the purchase. One of the best purchases I made! I have had friends come over to the house with their rifles for me to inspect............I asked them to give them their best cleaning?..........They were amazed how "unclean" their barrels were. It also give you a good look at the throat area in CF rifles to determine how eroded they are or are not? The angled mirror at the tip of the scope allows you to examine your lands and groves at 90* under 8X magnification.
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Post by nick50471 on Jan 16, 2020 12:48:06 GMT -5
Question for Nick50417. Which JB? AND how hard was that bullet and what kind of jacket? AND what about SML where speed is lower. I don't shoot my SMLs over 2.5K and my smokers don't usually get over 2.1K. Is there any data for that regimen? Inquiring minds want to know? I'd hate to think I'm wearing out my barrels in 2 or 3 years. Any idea of why the barrels so different in lifespan? "Standard" type cleaning not really getting the barrels clean? Or is the procedure really doing the damage to the barrel? OH man, now I'm glad I have stayed with the sabot loadings. Lower recoil and 3C range is just fine for my hunting and most of my shooting. Interesting questions, any discussion may bring greater enlightenment. Safe shooting and hunting to all. 10ga The test was a solid copper bullet. The harsher Blue paste I believe. This test was to gather data for a military contract. Take from the data whatever you want. Many of are shooting SML's well above 3k.
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Post by 10gaauto on Jan 16, 2020 13:56:12 GMT -5
The test was a solid copper bullet. The harsher Blue paste I believe. This test was to gather data for a military contract. Take from the data whatever you want. Many of are shooting SML's well above 3k.
Thanks for the information. Yeah I know the SML guys shoot way above 3K. Just not for me. In 07 when I got my ML2 I was very pleased to not have to clean every day of shooting and better accuracy and terminal performance. That has been enough for me. OH well yes, I'm a SML addict, and it's a great thrill every time I hit the range with a "new" rifle. If I can get MOD (minute of deer) at 3C I'm very happy guy. After 47 years of smokers SML was a godsend!! Just enough to understand what is happening with a barrel. Once heard the famous or infamous Ed Harris say to the question "how long should a barrel last?" Answer, "about 10 seconds". Considering the time a "round" slides down the tube that is pretty accurate. Yes, I remember the days of boiling water and "pumping" to get a smoker cleaned up. Never imagined ML would be where it is now. My experience and opinion, others will differ. 10
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Post by 10gaauto on Jan 16, 2020 14:04:07 GMT -5
Question for Nick50417. Any idea of why the barrels so different in lifespan? "Standard" type cleaning not really getting the barrels clean? Or is the procedure really doing the damage to the barrel? Safe shooting and hunting to all. 10ga
This question kind of what many need to know? Thoughts, consideration and ideas on this question welcome!!
Oh yeah, I'm certainly considering changing my cleaning regimen on my 17 cal CF rifles, 3.8K to 4.2K fps, and the 6.5 at 3.3K fps. What are the gurus thinking about this?? 10
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Post by dannoboone on Jan 16, 2020 17:11:59 GMT -5
No guru here, and I believe something needs to change, but I clean SS barrels when accuracy goes south, and blued barrels a little more often. After getting the Lyman bore scope, it was very apparent that copper was removed while carbon just hung in there. It almost became a nightmare to get the carbon removed.
P.S. This is in reference to CF barrels, both factory and custom. The .45 SS SML barrels have been a breeze to clean compared to the CF's.
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Post by Richard on Jan 16, 2020 18:52:37 GMT -5
Try moly in your CF rifles! It worked for my 1.564" 1,000 yard record back in 2002 ...(which has since been broken in 2007 and 2019).
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