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Post by sew on Dec 31, 2019 11:00:59 GMT -5
I’m still in shock at how bullets can expand so explosively and quickly. I’m referencing , in particular, the doe I shot at 100 yards with a 40 cal 225 AccuMax with a MV of 2949’/sec. But, also, the huge bodied buck I shot the month before at ~100 yards with a 200SST with a MV of 2510. Neither passed through. The buck was in the H/L area and was mush, which was ok. The doe was a tiny bit fwd of the diaphragm and the entire insides were mush, which was really not ok! I did a little calculation on the 40 cal. If the doe was 15” wide, that’s 1.25’. 1.25’/~2,800’/sec = 0.000446 secs. This very pointed, sleek bullet just made it thru the hide and exploded practically instantly. That’s about 4/10,000s of a second, actually below; because it didn’t make it thru the other side so it traveled well less than 15”. Hydrostatic physics is pretty complicated stuff. Now, that deer and bear hunting is over this season for me, I’m just reflecting on the season past and preparing for the upcoming season. “Hard Core” , now takes on a new meaning to me.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 31, 2019 11:50:10 GMT -5
Steve I think if you can tolerate the recoil you might be better served with a 278 hardcore (yes I think I have Kyle talked into doing a run) and keep the speed down around 2700 or so, It would still shoot plenty flat, buck wind better than the light bullets and on game performance should be good. the velocity difference alone will negate some of the recoil, yes it will likely still have more but should be tolerable.
That's my plan for the new light gun build, a 278 Hardcore at moderate speed, in some of the light .45s (8 lbs unscoped) I have done in the past a 275 at 2800 was pretty pleasant to shoot but they had a brake of course.
In my SML experience the longer per caliber bullet = deeper penetration and less expansion with a better chance for exit, the little 225 Accumax don't stand much of a chance at high speed, at say 2500 it would likely perform well.
I hope to have my light gun up and running to try out at the Polar Bear shoot, I will get input from others there as to recoil and overall thoughts.
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Post by 150class on Dec 31, 2019 11:59:09 GMT -5
I am in a bit of a different place with thoughts to these SMLs and how the bullets ethically kill the target animals. Perhaps the explosion combined with the momentum into the animal is a good thing, not bad? Mine usually have an exit hole, sometimes a rather large hole. While shocked to have no exit with the buck I shot last year (hard quartering away), he fell in his tracks. Regardless of the explosive effects of the bullets, or the lack of, a properly placed bullet almost always ends in a very dead critter with a very short tracking job, usually bang flop. I know the meat damage bothers some of us, and the sometimes explosive nature when using high speed loads shocks us too, but for me, the quick ethical kill outweighs all else. I do think the hard cores are something to consider, and I am tempted to try the Barnes 290 tez in my .45 ml's, only for the reason of less worry about lead in the meat, but I have been very happy with the very dead dear I have shot using these smokeless guns over the past +/- 10 years. The guns for sure to their part and it is hard to complain with results with the bullets I have used. Dead deer, ethical kill, is a very good thing.
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Post by sew on Dec 31, 2019 12:39:47 GMT -5
I agree with you both. However, I have had some of the explosive, non-passthrus that didn’t result in a DRT or near DRT. This doe, though knocked backwards almost off her feet, went appx 80-100 yards. Occasional blood out of her noise. Last year, the same with a 200 SST that took 2 hrs to find. Still, as a general rule, they go down quickly. I expect that the “hard cores” will be a nice compromise.
Bill, remember, my 40 is a 10ML2/209 ventliner. I’m sending the barrel to Richard for a MB, sending 2 BPs to see if they’re convertible to a Hank sized bushing and to see if an HIS conversion could be accomplished. Still, my 40 is a retrofit with its inherent pressure limitations. I was given a new Zeiss Conquest 50mm, parallex adj, 5x25 I’d like to use on it IF the recoil could be such that it wouldn’t destroy it. I have been considering the 250 AccuMax; but realistically, my need for anything >300 yards is really rare.
However, sometimes we want more than we need. Thoughts on the conversion’s limitations? FWIW, the 209 primer is fully contained and isn’t a pressure limitation, at least yet.
When I hunt the field where 400+ yard shots are available, I’ll likely use Richard’s former 45/Sightron 111 , 6x24 ZR , lighted reticle (25169) with 300 AeroMaxes/70g H4198.
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Post by dannoboone on Dec 31, 2019 13:50:14 GMT -5
Over a 20 year period, my brother and Dad got 35-40 mulies with their .22-250's using Hornady 55gr SP's, using lung shots only. Fifty yards was about the maximum death run and very few exits. But then, out in SW Nebraska in its openness one can see the deer fall anywhere within 50 yards. Point being, frangible bullets are deadly, rapidly when going for the lung area. Using them for any other shot with any caliber can make for long, difficult trailing or wounded deer vanishing prior to expiring.
It's a crying shame that someone hasn't come up with a copper alloy soft enough to obturate well enough to compete in accuracy with jacketed, yet retain their wicked killing power. Seems that it requires shooting the full length of a deer's body to stop a Barnes, but they are no 500yd bullet!
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 31, 2019 14:58:22 GMT -5
I agree with you both. However, I have had some of the explosive, non-passthrus that didn’t result in a DRT or near DRT. This doe, though knocked backwards almost off her feet, went appx 80-100 yards. Occasional blood out of her noise. Last year, the same with a 200 SST that took 2 hrs to find. Still, as a general rule, they go down quickly. I expect that the “hard cores” will be a nice compromise. Bill, remember, my 40 is a 10ML2/209 ventliner. I’m sending the barrel to Richard for a MB, sending 2 BPs to see if they’re convertible to a Hank sized bushing and to see if an HIS conversion could be accomplished. Still, my 40 is a retrofit with its inherent pressure limitations. I was given a new Zeiss Conquest 50mm, parallex adj, 5x25 I’d like to use on it IF the recoil could be such that it wouldn’t destroy it. I have been considering the 250 AccuMax; but realistically, my need for anything >300 yards is really rare. However, sometimes we want more than we need. Thoughts on the conversion’s limitations? FWIW, the 209 primer is fully contained and isn’t a pressure limitation, at least yet. When I hunt the field where 400+ yard shots are available, I’ll likely use Richard’s former 45/Sightron 111 , 6x24 ZR , lighted reticle (25169) with 300 AeroMaxes/70g H4198. Steve....have an in depth conversation with HillBill about the Ziess 5x25 .... Drop
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Post by sew on Dec 31, 2019 15:06:46 GMT -5
Drop, I don’t want to! I know what he’ll say. Maybe, I’ll just save it for my 22-250 AI. I am considering getting my Bushnell 6x24 tgt dot scope re-reticle’d . The incoming Sightron 3 6x24 will go on one of the two guns, likely the 45.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 31, 2019 15:50:21 GMT -5
Steve The old Conquests had great glass but couldn’t stand the recoil, the HD 5 which is what I assume you have don’t hold up either.
The new Conquest V-4 line is made in Japan and the one on my gun for testing has held up well but I have fired less than 100 shots through it, a guy I buy from says he has sold a pile of the new V-4s and has had only one with a problem so far. He also told me the new V-6 which is made in Germany is a different matter, lots of problems. Maybe the Japanese need to teach the Germans how to build a scope?
I would install it, run it til it dies, send it back and ask for a V-4 in exchange I really like the new reticle, illumination and so far the turret is spot on
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Post by hillbill on Dec 31, 2019 15:53:42 GMT -5
To add You should be fine with the 209 and a bushing added, even with a 275 @ 2700 you should have no problems
Pressure should be reasonable
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Post by 12ptdroptine on Dec 31, 2019 19:36:34 GMT -5
Steve, I had a Ziess 5X25 HD on a .45 700 ml action heavy pacnor barrel bedded and a B&C m40 stock.68 68 gn of H4198 and a 275 Parker BE. It only lived for 12 shots. Hate to be the bearer if not so pleasant news. Now the .40 might be totally defferent. Back then we didnt have the "deadication" as to the way we mounted scopes. Over kill rings...bedded bases...bedded actions recoil lugs and I believe the lack of this all added to the quick death of a lot optics.. However mine was built with all the affore mentioned as left out.today we pay a LOT more attention to builds in these areas along with very efficient muzzke brakes. Good luck whichever path you choose Drop
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Post by sew on Dec 31, 2019 21:03:42 GMT -5
How about the 2.5x10 and 6x24 Bushnell 4200s? I have 1 of each.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 31, 2019 21:21:35 GMT -5
No experience with one on a SML? One way to find out!
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Post by sew on Dec 31, 2019 22:10:53 GMT -5
The 2.5x10 survived over 5,000 10ML2 shots. I’m more concerned about the 6x24 with its parallex adjust. Neither the 40 or 45 have really serious recoil, IMO. The 40 will soon have a MB. Ideally, both would have the same Sightron model. Maybe, that’ll happen.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 1, 2020 12:36:51 GMT -5
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Post by paleface45 on Jan 1, 2020 13:26:39 GMT -5
I’m still in shock at how bullets can expand so explosively and quickly. I’m referencing , in particular, the doe I shot at 100 yards with a 40 cal 225 AccuMax with a MV of 2949’/sec. But, also, the huge bodied buck I shot the month before at ~100 yards with a 200SST with a MV of 2510. Neither passed through. The buck was in the H/L area and was mush, which was ok. The doe was a tiny bit fwd of the diaphragm and the entire insides were mush, which was really not ok! I did a little calculation on the 40 cal. If the doe was 15” wide, that’s 1.25’. 1.25’/~2,800’/sec = 0.000446 secs. This very pointed, sleek bullet just made it thru the hide and exploded practically instantly. That’s about 4/10,000s of a second, actually below; because it didn’t make it thru the other side so it traveled well less than 15”. Hydrostatic physics is pretty complicated stuff. Now, that deer and bear hunting is over this season for me, I’m just reflecting on the season past and preparing for the upcoming season. “Hard Core” , now takes on a new meaning to me.
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Post by paleface45 on Jan 1, 2020 13:33:11 GMT -5
Try Hornady mono-flex or Barnes. I use the Hornady 250gr at 2650fps, full formed, deer are DRT and full penetration with 95% plus retained weight. Perfect mushroom in wet catalogs. You will have no complaints about damaged meat anymore if shot in the right place. PS. Hard to full form!
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Post by sew on Jan 1, 2020 14:25:41 GMT -5
I agree totally concerning the terminal efficacy of monolithic bullets from 53g Barnes in my 223, and 175 and 195 Barnes in my 40 & 45 PacNors , CEBs (165 & 240) in my 40 and 45(annealed/knurled) and 250 TEZs in ML2. I’ve killed deer with every one of these and no losses nor any difficult recoveries. Of all things, my son made a moderately good shot, 15+ years ago with a ML2/290 Barnes expander/45g VV110. No passthru(only ever with a monolithic) and difficult but successful recovery.
I’m after extreme trajectory within the limits of my 10ML/40 PN AND terminal efficiency. There’ll be a shootout between 240CEBs and 225,250 and 275 40 cal AccuMaxes.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jan 1, 2020 15:13:35 GMT -5
Fury bullets are bonded jackets and cheaper too. $75/50 in tipped.
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Post by doubledrop16 on Jan 3, 2020 6:39:50 GMT -5
Fury bullets are bonded jackets and cheaper too. $75/50 in tipped. These are what plan shooting next year. Hoping for good expansion , complete pass through and less meat damage . I'm a meat man and don't mind a good blood trail as long as it's not too far. Most of my shots are 50 to 250 max.
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Post by Kyle on Jan 3, 2020 20:20:34 GMT -5
I had a customer, Afton P., text me a picture of a ballistic gel test on December 16th. He indicated that the tested bullet is the 275 grain AccuMax .452", 2900 FPS muzzle velocity. The ballistic gel was 50 yards from the muzzle. Just thought I'd share this with the board. He also said tests may happen at longer ranges and if so would supply me some pictures of the tests.
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