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Post by sew on Dec 27, 2019 23:28:53 GMT -5
After a lot of testing loads for the 10 ML/ML2, I was just tired of the recoil and thought that 50 cal was just very inefficient for its intended purpose. I got a 40 PN retrofit before the 1st 45 PN was shooting. It’s 3rd pillared, bedded, SSS Comp 1.5# trigger, 26” barrel and conventional 209 ignition. I shot 200SSTs and 195Bs at 2700+ , but it wasn’t as consistent as the 2nd 45, the RB OBO 45, nor any faster. This gun just never lived up to my hopes. Things turned around when I got a 40 cal smooth sizing die from Hank and 225/228 AccuMaxes from Kyle. The rifle came alive! At 100 and 200 yards, it is Appx 1/2 MOA(3-shot), 2940-2950’/sec. It’s extremely flat shooting. Light to moderate recoil. Having 1 doe tag left, I just had to use it. Our 3 day season , 26-28 Dec, gave that chance. Yesterday evening I had appx 8 doe come within 60 yards of me In the last few minutes of shooting light , but I wanted a longer shot and actually just didn’t want to go thru the aftermath of shooting a deer at nearly dark 13 miles from home. After talking to Kyle this morning, I went out behind my house and had a doe within 30 minutes. The 3 slick heads just wouldn’t separate enough for a shot w/o shooting 2 at once. Eventually, they moved enough I could get a fairly decent shot on the largest doe. They were 100 yards. I had to shoot about 4” aft of where I wanted . BAD IDEA! The 40 cal 225 AccuMax left the rifle at appx 2950, knocked the deer off its feet and it took off. 80 yards. Blood out it’s nose. I had to look for the entrance hole, no exit! Maybe there’s a reason for the “hard cores”, the ones as of yet, not shot and on my counter beside my box of mostly shot 225s. When I gutted the deer, it was unbelievable inside! How can such an aerodynamic bullet going so fast and yet not exit? I ordered some of the blemished 300 Aeromaxes this afternoon for Richard’s former 45 and determined to never shoot a deer with a non-hard core again.
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Post by sew on Dec 27, 2019 23:37:23 GMT -5
The other, non-passthru side.
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Post by olegburn on Dec 28, 2019 1:01:45 GMT -5
Not familiar with Accumax bullets- are they similar to SST? Too soft and too fast?
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Post by sew on Dec 28, 2019 8:28:19 GMT -5
Kyle and others should answer, the “too soft” part. I will definitely target shoot and might varmint hunt with them, but they are very frangible. The same bullet with a harder core, named “hard cores and are 3gs heavier, for differentiation, seems like it’d be a better choice for deer,bear, etc hunting. From what reading I’ve done and the results displayed, the AccuMaxes and AeroMaxes are the most accurate MLing bullets ever made.
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Post by jims on Dec 28, 2019 8:30:59 GMT -5
I am glad you were able to recover the deer. Heart/lung shot deer sometimes go a bit of distance before expiring. The difficulty as you know is if there is no blood trail finding the deer. We had three high shoulder shots this year on deer, dropped right there. My button buck, the smallest of the group, deer 4, ran 50 yards with the heart/lung shot with not a trace of blood. In a way I am surprised I found it as my daughter and I thought it was a clean miss.
Nice write up on your doe. I will be following with interest your .40 work this year as I also have a RB 40 PacNor and would like to use more than the 195 Barnes and 200 SSTs. Now you may have to do some ballistic gel or water jug testing. Have a good year.
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Post by olebud on Dec 28, 2019 14:15:23 GMT -5
Great story Steve! I had the same thing happen with a doe at 30 with a 300 Aero going 2850 FPS. Bullets are not too soft. The non hard cores are designed for long range shooting. As Steve knows, here in Arkansas, you may get 150 yards, but more likely 50. Kyle being the ballistic genius he is, designed the hardcore for folks like us. Still absolutely devastating at long range, but harder for close ups. Steve, proud to hear you closed out that last tag! It’s 60 degrees and foggy here, so opted to hold off and snipe my last deer with a bow!
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Post by Kyle on Dec 28, 2019 14:28:01 GMT -5
The AccuMax and Aeromax were designed from day one to do the following: 1- Shoot Accurate at long range 2 - Be a flat shooting bullet 3 - Have the ability to deliver its energy at long range
Long range in terms of delivery of energy is relative to initial muzzle velocity. It’s really all about impact velocity. A bullet will react on impact based on mainly 3 parameters:
1 - It’s own density and hardness 2 - The density of the target 3 - It’s impact velocity
For instances where hunters encounter higher velocity impact shots presented, I introduced the Hard Core series with harder lead to expand less and penetrate more.
I congratulate Steve on his harvests. For his muzzle velocity and chosen stand site / expected harvest distance, the Hard Core series would have performed better in my opinion.
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Post by olebud on Dec 28, 2019 14:42:33 GMT -5
Kyle is secretly designing a buck seeking bullet for me as we speak! We have a big or two to work out in that it only targets 150+ bucks. 😂
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Post by smokelessk on Dec 28, 2019 15:10:22 GMT -5
Here's a bullet story for you. This was a 300 grain XTP backed by 73 grains of 4198. Muzzle velocity of right around 2,800 fps. Shot was taken at roughly 45 yards, maybe a few yards closer. So far every deer I have shot with my Hankins barreled SML have all been head shots. 7 total, I think. Well this head shot the XTP did not exit. That is a first. All the other head shots have, well, opened their minds up if you will. I was really surprised that this doe had no exit wound. Yes, the XTP is a XTP mag and not just a XTP. Even being a mag it was still never intended to be fired at this velocity. What did happen on this doe, instead of an exit wound, her neck was broken by the energy from the bullet. Yup, true story. About halfway down her neck the spine was snapped clean in two! Some serious whiplash! The other head shot I had the same morning looked like she swallowed a grenade that exploded in her mouth. That is what I usually get with the head shots. A bullet not exiting was something I didn't expect.
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Post by sew on Dec 28, 2019 16:55:16 GMT -5
300 XTP MAGs are pretty tough. At speeds of 2300’/sec launch and out to 100 yards, they’d make a 45 hole in and out.
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Post by smokelessk on Dec 28, 2019 17:05:10 GMT -5
300 XTP MAGs are pretty tough. At speeds of 2300’/sec launch and out to 100 yards, they’d make a 45 hole in and out. Yes, I really was shocked that her head absorbed the bullet. There was no exit wound though.
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Post by boonechaser on Dec 28, 2019 17:10:17 GMT -5
had to finish off several deer over the years, that has looked like this one, from guys taking head shots. Not a shot I’d take, too many variables, when waiting for a broadside shot is not too hard..
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Post by deadeye on Dec 28, 2019 20:51:04 GMT -5
Steve- you are on the right path imo- up the projectile weight & lower the speed to a balance that is comfortable to you recoil wise & of course accuracy wise at the distance's you will be shooting. this alone will not guarantee a passthrough but a step in the right direction-Speed Sells! & is Good at Times. With the Distance's I think you are shooting the Maximum Point Blank Range or Maximum Point Blank Zero should work very well,of course you can Dial also! just recently in my 6.5wsm 129 lrab @ 3400fps vs. 300rum 180gn @ 3150fps-both on paper equal ballistically out to 1k & proven out to 444yds on paper BUT recently a deer shot w/ 6.5wsm same results as your mz(no pass through-this gun recoiled much less** but I Will opt for the 300 Rum on Elk Even though Proven on Indiana Deer- 300 rum no Contest on Game!
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Post by sew on Dec 28, 2019 22:20:26 GMT -5
I actually hunt where I could shoot 400 yds plus. As a matter of fact , where I shot the deer with the OBO the other side of the blind faced an open field at least 500+ yards in length. This is agricultural Arkansas, much different than the Ozarks or Ouachitas. So, I can actually have longer shots.
For the 45 cal, I think med to longer range (300-400 yds) will be better served with a 303g AeroMax going a little slower than a 278g AccuMax . For my 10ML2/40 PN, I’m still undecided , ie haven’t tested yet , whether the 228g AccuMax or the 250 AccuMax will get the nod. Likely, the 228.
The journey often outweighs the destination.
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Post by olebud on Dec 28, 2019 23:58:56 GMT -5
I actually hunt where I could shoot 400 yds plus. As a matter of fact , where I shot the deer with the OBO the other side of the blind faced an open field at least 500+ yards in length. This is agricultural Arkansas, much different than the Ozarks or Ouachitas. So, I can actually have longer shots. For the 45 cal, I think med to longer range (300-400 yds) will be better served with a 303g AeroMax going a little slower than a 278g AccuMax . For my 10ML2/40 PN, I’m still undecided , ie haven’t tested yet , whether the 228g AccuMax or the 250 AccuMax will get the nod. Likely, the 228. The journey is often outweighs the destination. I’m absolutely digging the accuracy on the 300 Aeromax and 4198. Best accuracy hands down of anything I’ve tried. I plan to try the hardcore next! I forgot about you being in farm country, I wish I’d had this thing when I lived there.... but I’m sure the deer are glad I didn’t!
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Post by hillbill on Dec 29, 2019 7:50:57 GMT -5
We must keep in mind that we are shooting these things VERY fast by any standard, speed + a large diameter bullet = massive expansion. Kyle has to walk a tightrope when designing a bullet for these guns, it has to be soft enough to swell easy or they simply will not shoot yet hard enough not to grenade.
I have taken 5 deer this season with my Anesthesia .40 cal with 303 Accumax hardcores @ 2900 FPS MV, the closest was about 65 yards, the longest over 200, all shots encountered bone, 3 of the 5 had exit holes, some pretty massive, all reacted as if they had been struck by lightening, they never moved a muscle after the shot.
IMO for higher speeds one needs to use the hardcores BUT even then you will see major devastation unless it's a perfect broad side thru the ribs shot which I have had none of so far this year.
even in a center fire high MV results in major damage most of the time unless it's a super hard or mono bullet. We can slow the speeds way down and get better bullet performance or shoot a heavier per caliber bullet, it's a balancing act.
My friend shot a doe recently about 200 yards broad side behind the shoulder with a 325 .45 Aeromax @ 3085 MV, the exit hole was big enough to stick your foot in and the deer still ran 40 yards missing most of it's lungs, my point is that at the speed we are pushing these big bullets we can't expect quarter size exit holes or with the lighter bullets any exit at all? what we do have are VERY accurate bullets that get the job done quite well, things are a little messy in the process sometimes?
Steve and I have talked, we are both shooting the same caliber, I am currently building a light weight .40 that will be designed to shoot the 250- 275 Accumax which will put me in the same realm that he is as far as recoil goes, I will likely not push either bullet past 2750 to keep the recoil down and IF there is enough interest we might be able to talk Kyle into doing a 278 Accumax hardcore for the .40?
The best of both worlds? Maybe? low recoil, fairly high BC and flat shooting.
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Post by sew on Dec 29, 2019 9:32:50 GMT -5
Bill, etal, I think most of us are aware that MLing minimum calibers written into state laws came from round ball energy remaining at 75, maybe 100 yards for deer.
There was a move within the industry to change from 50 to 45 as the main caliber. Knight , and others, pushed their 150g of equivalent powders/45cal bullet for a 200 yd, flat shooting MLer shooting @ 2,600’/sec. What they didn’t advertise was that the 155g XTP was like throwing a small brick fast.The trajectory and terminal performance at even 125 yds was terrible. They never went on to the 200SST, available at that time, and a realistic 2150-2200’/sec that really could have been a 200 yard load.
Within a couple of years, those 45s were history and 50cal was more entrenched than ever and even the common 54 was discontinued. Just look at what’s available now commercially: it’s either a 50 or a 50.Now, not only from a historical , true traditional MLers , but now from recent experience, smaller calibers have an even greater stigma. Possibly, the encroachment of straight walled cartridges into “primitive” seasons will allow more usage of 38 (375) - 40 cals in MLers. But, as it is, 40 cals are limited to the minority of us due to state regulations.
Since energy remaining with 40,45 and 50 calibers is many times in excess of what we need or want for ideal terminal performance , using the smallest caliber possible, only has advantages for most MLing deer hunting. Only comparatively recently have optimized 40 cal projectiles become available that can compete with the 45 cal bullets for fairly long range accuracy. From a hunting standpoint , with a rifle that doesn’t need a shooting house to be used, a 40 cal seems to be the best choice whether the max intended range is out to even 400-500 yards.
PS I’m aware that there is likely an optimized diameter/length ratio for optimal , practical extreme long range work, likely driven by the maximum pressure that can be used on the projectile and in the chamber.
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Post by GMB54-120 on Dec 29, 2019 12:48:40 GMT -5
Knight never stopped offering 45s and now offers a 1-20 and the 1-18 again. They even offer the 45 1-20 barrel kits for an upgrade. CVA has 2 fast twist 45s and it appears they will be adding 1-2 more. The Paramount is pushing a 280gr bullet around 2300fps.
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Post by olegburn on Jan 14, 2020 21:35:15 GMT -5
Here is an idea: Bring 2 muzzleloaders. 1 loaded for long-distance loaded hot with an aerodynamic bullet. The second will get a heavy XTP or Hornady with a light load of 4759 or something like that. Your issues are put to rest! Call me crazy...
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Post by olegburn on Jan 14, 2020 21:44:10 GMT -5
During rifle season in Ohio, I'd bring my Savage ML2 for early morning or evening hunt where I'm near open areas. Around lunchtime, our party be doing drives. I always volunteer to push the woods and thickets ( almost always get an opportunity to shoot if you don't hurry) I'd grab a 20 ga H&R single shot shotgun or the 444 Marlin Handi-Rifle for 50 yards or fewer shots.
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