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Post by Richard on Dec 26, 2019 15:19:27 GMT -5
So look, lets put this long range thing into perspective! Yes, that was a good shot Hank put on that deer. Now lets consider what was needed to make that shot. First of all, you need a location such as he has..............I do not and would venture to say that 95% on the members here also do not have such a location. Then there is the shooting house built specifically to make these shots on deer (when they cooperate). Hank had put out yardage markers and would assume that he and Kyle did much practice shooting to get really good "dope." Then you have Kyle, with a quality range finder feeding solid information to the shooter. If anyone has been to the Challenge and seen "Cyclops" they know it is a ..........like 34 lb. rifle with a monster barrel in a 1K benchrest type stock with an Army surplus tank brake and sits upon a high quality bench rest with rear bag. This baby is make for long range work. Hank is shooting Kyle's excellent 353 hard core AeroMax bullets at some 3800 fps......yes, I can verify that velocity as I shot the rifle myself. But then you need the very best conditions; because wind and mirage can absolutely kill you at 800 yards..........and yes, at 400 too! Lets also look at Kyle's new .40 cal. which is also a 32 lb killer rifle.....oh yeah, both these guns have killer scopes on them. I watched Kyle shoot that itty bitty .278" three shot group at 400 yards and in fact, rode up to the target with Kyle to pull the target so I know it was for real! Note here: That group was shot at somewhere around 7 to 8:00 in the evening when the conditions were dead still and no mirage was around. The deer Hank dropped, was shot just before dark when the conditions were probably perfect. On Kyle's shooting, fast forward to the next day.......Saturday when we were competing and the 400 yard stage was shot in early afternoon when there were wind/mirage conditions. I just looked over the score board in my basement, for the 400 yard stage and the average of seventeen shooters was right around 3 1/2". Kyle did very well with 2.3" and Hillbill the best at 1.9".............and that was at 400 yards. You can see that at 800 it could result in a miss or wound! The point here is that many of the shooters on this forum could be capable of duplicating a shot like that if they had the location to do it and the total equipment package to work with. Even guns in the 15 lb. range would be contenders. We did have a member a few years ago do an 865 yard shot with I believe, was a Savage .45 conversion with a 25" barrel. Again, he shot from his barn yard and had practiced at that distance. Just like Jeff Fisk's shot at 700 some yards from his yard at a location had had practiced at. I am sure we would see more of these long range shots if members had the ability to practice and shoot at those distances because most of the custom rifles we are shooting have the ability to hit targets at those extended ranges. Thanks to Jeff for showcasing and building these quality rifles and Kyle for perfecting bullets that make these guns shine! And yes, I am jealous that I don't have such a location!
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Post by Ice on Dec 26, 2019 21:31:29 GMT -5
Nice summation Richard!
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Post by speedrackin on Dec 27, 2019 9:39:57 GMT -5
great perspective Rich ..... hats of to Jeff and Kyle with all there hard work ....it shows having the set up is paramount. Keep up the good reports ....all 3 of you !
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Post by elkman1310 on Dec 27, 2019 16:07:05 GMT -5
Richard points out some important facts about long range hunting. I have almost 40 years of long range hunting and shooting experience with many ELR kills to my name. But none have been with a muzzleloader. Yes I have a muzzleloader that is capable of killing deer at 1k but it is simply the wrong weapon for the job. Biggest draw back is the one shot and then reload the gun which takes time and the fact that it has to come off the bench and off the animal you just shot at or crippled spells disaster. I have seen long range hunters fire over 20 rounds at a deer yes sometimes its a one shot kill but most of the time its not.
I built a .338 Edge this year and we killed a nice 8pt buck here in Pa. the pictures are posted on the high power board. It took two shots to kill the deer at 1175 yards first shot was off because of windage second shot killed the deer. Here in Pa, we hunt in the mountains there is always trees and branches and brush to shoot through so the 300gr bullet works well for that. Hank did make a very good shot on that deer and hitting it with a 353gr bullet just about anywhere would put it down.
I know everyone is trying to push the limits of their muzzleloaders that fine for target practice but not for hunting that just IMHO.
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Post by Kyle on Dec 29, 2019 13:07:49 GMT -5
Richard points out some important facts about long range hunting. I have almost 40 years of long range hunting and shooting experience with many ELR kills to my name. But none have been with a muzzleloader. Yes I have a muzzleloader that is capable of killing deer at 1k but it is simply the wrong weapon for the job. Biggest draw back is the one shot and then reload the gun which takes time and the fact that it has to come off the bench and off the animal you just shot at or crippled spells disaster. I have seen long range hunters fire over 20 rounds at a deer yes sometimes its a one shot kill but most of the time its not. I built a .338 Edge this year and we killed a nice 8pt buck here in Pa. the pictures are posted on the high power board. It took two shots to kill the deer at 1175 yards first shot was off because of windage second shot killed the deer. Here in Pa, we hunt in the mountains there is always trees and branches and brush to shoot through so the 300gr bullet works well for that. Hank did make a very good shot on that deer and hitting it with a 353gr bullet just about anywhere would put it down. I know everyone is trying to push the limits of their muzzleloaders that fine for target practice but not for hunting that just IMHO. Elkman, With a 100 yard zero, with the .338 Edge how many MOA of elevation correction is needed for 1000 yards?
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Post by hillbill on Dec 30, 2019 7:52:52 GMT -5
Actually Elkman I don't see much difference in getting it done with a SML and a CF? running the load jeff is with his gun and the load you are shooting in the Edge I would venture to say his gun has less dial up than you do at that distance?
I realize you are shooting into a mountain side and can spot calls more easily but for getting it done in one shot?
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Post by jims on Dec 30, 2019 8:38:21 GMT -5
With the excellent range finders we have IMO dial up is less of a concern than the wind and that the deer could easily move for the time it takes for a bullet to travel 1000 yards or more. The CF would at least make a quicker follow up shot available.
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Post by elkman1310 on Dec 30, 2019 9:27:46 GMT -5
The big concern is the need for a quick follow up shot. You simply cannot do it fast enough with a muzzleloader. Taking your eyes off the target or deer at long ranges is a really bad practice You will loose more game by doing that then anything else. No offense but you guys have very limited experience when it comes to long distance shooting let alone long range hunting keeping your yardages to a doable distance under 600 yards will increase your odds of a clean kill even 600 yards can be a real challenge if conditions are not good. Muzzleloaders in general are very poor in windy conditions past 300 yards. After doing this stuff for almost 40 years I can tell you unless conditions are really good and you have very good equipment your not going to be making one shot kills at 1,000 yards and beyond. That's simply the facts of life.
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Post by buckeye68 on Dec 30, 2019 10:07:42 GMT -5
The big concern is the need for a quick follow up shot. You simply cannot do it fast enough with a muzzleloader. Taking your eyes off the target or deer at long ranges is a really bad practice You will loose more game by doing that then anything else. No offense but you guys have very limited experience when it comes to long distance shooting let alone long range hunting keeping your yardages to a doable distance under 600 yards will increase your odds of a clean kill even 600 yards can be a real challenge if conditions are not good. Muzzleloaders in general are very poor in windy conditions past 300 yards. After doing this stuff for almost 40 years I can tell you unless conditions are really good and you have very good equipment your not going to be making one shot kills at 1,000 yards and beyond. That's simply the facts of life. Good thing you have 19 more shots in your mag. 😂
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Post by Kyle on Dec 30, 2019 14:43:02 GMT -5
With a 100 yard zero, Cyclops verified come up at 1000 yards is 16.5 MOA, 353 grain Aeromax Hard Core at 3807 FPS muzzle velocity. With a 100 yard zero assuming a muzzle velocity of 2900 with a 300 Match King, even at a elevated BC of .800 G1, the come up at 1000 would be 23 MOA. I think this muzzleloader is highly capable of 1000 yard harvests, maybe more so than the .338 Edge.
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Post by elkman1310 on Dec 31, 2019 9:42:14 GMT -5
Kyle my Edge is pushing a 300gr SMK at 3085fps it took me 25.0 MOA to kill that buck at 1175 yards the elevation was 1,800 feet here in the mountains of Pa. You seem to be hung up on drop charts and energy which is important Hanks cannon is the exception not the rule of all the muzzleloaders that post on this board also it will never hang with a 300gr SMK or Berger bullet once you get well past 1,000 yards we build these long range rifle to sho0t out to 2,000 yards we have made kills out to 1950 yards.
I will say it again the muzzleloader is the wrong weapon to use for long range hunting do to the simple fact that you do have only one shot and you must remove the gun from your shooting bench and reload the gun and then put it back on the rest and then back on the animal. I am sorry but there is just no way of getting around that simple fact.
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Post by deadeye on Dec 31, 2019 11:26:31 GMT -5
Possible Solution for the 1,000 yd MZ Quest- 2 Total Separate Well Tuned Long range Set Ups Side By Side Sniper & Spotter Well Ready!
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Post by trekman on Dec 31, 2019 12:32:18 GMT -5
Kyle my Edge is pushing a 300gr SMK at 3085fps it took me 25.0 MOA to kill that buck at 1175 yards the elevation was 1,800 feet here in the mountains of Pa. You seem to be hung up on drop charts and energy which is important Hanks cannon is the exception not the rule of all the muzzleloaders that post on this board also it will never hang with a 300gr SMK or Berger bullet once you get well past 1,000 yards we build these long range rifle to sho0t out to 2,000 yards we have made kills out to 1950 yards. I will say it again the muzzleloader is the wrong weapon to use for long range hunting do to the simple fact that you do have only one shot and you must remove the gun from your shooting bench and reload the gun and then put it back on the rest and then back on the animal. I am sorry but there is just no way of getting around that simple fact. I'm not a long range shooter but from a hunting standpoint I would think if you put a bad shot on an animal at that distance(non-lethal) 99% of the time that animal is going to be on the run. With either weapon are you going to take a running shot at 1000 yds?, I would hope not. Now if it's a clean miss that's a different story with the advantage going to the centerfire if they stick around for another shot, but IMO at that distance it should be about one shot one kill. If you can make it take it. If you watched Jeff's video series on this I think he demonstrated that 1000 yards was doable for his rig.
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Post by Richard on Dec 31, 2019 14:29:44 GMT -5
Yes, under ideal weather conditions and having previously shot from that location in the same weather conditions. In reality, it does not happen very often OR...........you have to spend a lot of time waiting for that condition to reappear! Which is what Jeff and Kyle did!
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Post by deadeye on Dec 31, 2019 19:36:43 GMT -5
not trying to ruffle feathers but from a ballistic/realist view a .338 @ 1950yds is the same as a high power mz @ 1k//never done neither but have some long range experience & a little of elr on my terms.
both these scenerios are a stretch & trust the trigger puller doing their homework & like all shots hope they land on target!
I will not judge.
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Post by hillbill on Dec 31, 2019 21:52:31 GMT -5
Regardless if one believes that a SML is a capable long range hunting rig or not it is obvious that Jeff's gun is well outside the norm of the guns we build and use, is it capable? By all means! I spotted for him at Dead Zero @ 1000 and the gun is a hammer at that distance, I can vouch for that. for most of the rest of us? we have NO BUSINESS trying that shot, why? most don't have the proper equipment, and most have no place to practice at 1000 much less hunt at 1000. can our guns make hit's at that distance? Yep, been there done that, with predictable hunting accuracy? I will have to pass on that one.
The very same can be said for most people out there shooting big center fires, only a very small percentage are capable of getting it done or even having the proper equipment to do so with a place to do it.
Elkman and Jeff are in the small percentage in both venues with the equipment and know how to get it done, will Jeff take a deer at 1000? yep, no doubt in my mind, obviously he has taken the time and put the work in to do so and it will happen some day at that very location.
Many would argue that no one has any business attempting long range kills be it with a big center fire or any firearm? we can discuss that til Hillary get's elected and we will never see common ground.
It's obvious that it can be done, has been done and will be done in the future much more so in the center fire world than with the equipment we use BUT to say a SML is the wrong weapon fto get it done?? As Deadeye said, I will not Judge
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Post by buckeye68 on Jan 6, 2020 22:59:03 GMT -5
I’ve personally taken multiple deer with a muzzleloader that included reloading, all within a short period of time. A short period of time to me is, shoot reload, shoot reload and shoot reload. With 3 deer on the ground and the cross hairs on the 4th deer, my back total told my brain that I need to stop because I’ve got a lot of work in front of me.
Was it a long range shot, absolutely not but still I reloaded and repositioned the gun and shot another deer.
Can you follow up with another shot with a muzzleloader?
Absolutely it can be done with a muzzleloader.......
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Post by Richard on Jan 7, 2020 8:47:37 GMT -5
Yes, if the deer are not spooked and cooperate? Generally not the case. That was evident in Hanks video......and, at 800 yards!
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Post by dennis on Jan 7, 2020 10:07:24 GMT -5
I have 2 times shot multiple deer with sml both times in Tenn. once 3 in 15min. and 2 in 5min. both times deer were no more than 35yds. and in the rut. I think deer act very different, (from my experience) during the rut, bucks and does alike. I will say it is not often here in Ohio that any remaining deer after a shot will hang around or return though I have seen it.
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Post by joelmoney on Jan 8, 2020 14:36:41 GMT -5
I have shot deer and reloaded my my SML many times and could have and have shot another A couple times I have shot another and I am shooting a bolt gun with DI. We must have stupid deer in MN.
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