Accurate muzzle loaders………………That is the question?
Jul 20, 2017 15:20:24 GMT -5
dennis, nick50471, and 1 more like this
Post by Richard on Jul 20, 2017 15:20:24 GMT -5
Accurate muzzle loaders………………That is the question?
I have been thinking for some time about putting together an article, which I hope will draw intelligent discussion. It may bounce around some but hopefully my thoughts (good or bad) will get across.
Recently there was a thread and apparently my good friend and excellent gun builder/shooter Elkman (Carl) indicated he builds the most accurate muzzle loader rifles? Not that is like the flea floating down the river on his back with a “woody” hollering: “open the draw bridge!” Hmmmmm? The fact is, yes, Carl can build an accurate muzzle loader but then so can Jeff, Hillbill, Phil, myself and even a few people form another forum. But, what we are seeing are only the results (on paper) from those guns? To be truthful, accuracy has a whole lot more to do with the barrel and the person pulling the trigger.
For the most part, muzzle loader accuracy comes from the barrel and particularly everything forward of the breech plug. About none of which the actual builder has any control over? Put down a charge, load a bullet and it comes out where the barrel is pointed----in a broad sense? So, do any of the people I mentioned actually deep hole drill a virgin piece of steel, ream it, rifle it and lap it? I think not. Drilling and threading the breech end for the plug is kind of a no brainer if one has any degree of mechanical skill. It not 100% necessary that the plug fits “dead center” in the breech! Just close enough for the firing pin to hit it fairly centered and cause it to ignite. Now, this is a horse of a different color when it comes to CF rifles. Here the threaded barrel must be 100% square to the action……….which also has to square to the bolt face and recoil lugs and recesses. Then the “chamber” must be reamed perfectly in line with the bore so the bullet starts straight into the rifling. If it goes in canted, it will shave and come out the muzzle out of balance. This does not happen in a muzzle loader? You push it down the bore and it comes out the same way. Even IF the threads on exterior of the barrel were cut slightly out of square (we are talking in the ten thousandths off) and the barrel was pointing slightly off center (alignment with the scope mount) it would only mean that the scope had to be adjusted to correct for it? Up to this point, I see most all builds having about even accuracy (save for the barrel) It seems it is the quality and tolerance of the barrel that is more a determining factor in accuracy then the guy who screwed it together? And I literally mean that? If you can buy an action and then a pre-threaded barrel and breech plug and screw them together, most can create equally accurate muzzle loaders.
Next up, we have to put our barreled action into a stock. Many come with bedding blocks and pillars. I see pillar bedding as being most necessary with a CF rifle as uneven tightening stresses can somewhat put different pressures on the action. In fact, many precision bench rifles have heir actions glued into the stock. Most of this is unnecessary in a muzzle loader since……..remember? All the action takes place forward of the breech plug. The only real necessity is that the recoil lug make good contact with the abutment in the stock so there is no shifting shot to shot. I don’t think it takes a benchrest gunsmith to put a little J-B, Devcon or MarineTex in those areas to prevent shifting. Another item in the accuracy chain is the trigger. Without a good trigger the shooter will have trouble making the shot break with out disturbing the sight picture. So, we call on Arnold Jewel or Mr. Timney to supply us with a good trigger. (Note: the gun builder does not make these?) You tell me you want a Jewel trigger and I order and put it in.
Mounts and glass …………..There are many that work well and you do need good glass to be able to shoot accurately. You can’t hit what you can’t see? Again, nothing to do with the builder (although they might recommend one?)
So, we have a rifle that was screwed together from parts bought from the individual makers. Everyone on this forum has access to buying these parts……….they are not exclusive to Elkman or Jeff or whomever? We have added someone’s stock and someone else’s trigger, mounts, rings and scope and have a working rifle. Probably hundreds of these out there in the hands of shooters. I go to bench rest matches with 50 shooters present and I would bet 30 to 40 of them (the rifles) are capable of winning the match?................but only one wins…………Not because it was THE MOSE ACCURATE, but because it had the better (at least for that match) shooter directing it!
With our muzzle loaders it’s the bullets, the powders, the loads that play a critical part in the accuracy of any rifle. Carlos shot what he shot-----and I truly believe he did what he did as much as I believe Carl shot what he shot at 1,000 yards not because THEY have the MOST accurate rifle but because they do their homework and are good trigger pullers. Why do I shoot so much and play with so many loads and bullets? Because that is how you find out FIRST hand what works and what does not work? I happen to get some pretty good results with duplex loads……………Carl says I only need single powder loads?...............Not in my book? We are fortunate to have people like Kyle who have made substantial investments to produce bullet capable of good shooters being able to shoot good groups? Dennis at Fury is working on bullet for our muzzle loaders. Guys like Phil “Hammer” have dabbled with the Direct Ignition System (DIS) and Hank with HIS module system. It is people who try and test these systems shooting tons of bullets and powders who make accuracy possible with these guns. Some shoot off suffocated rests, some lead sled, some bipods and a lot of good results occur. Members here and on the other board tinker and come up with stuff. Some works some does not but to say WHO builds the best or most accurate muzzle loader rifle-------------or for that matter, any rifle?...............There just is no answer. It is the ability of the owner to figure out what it takes to make his or her rifle work.
Anyway, I had some free time and it was too hot for outside work so I thought I would put this together. Hopefully, it will get members contributing their thoughts.
I have been thinking for some time about putting together an article, which I hope will draw intelligent discussion. It may bounce around some but hopefully my thoughts (good or bad) will get across.
Recently there was a thread and apparently my good friend and excellent gun builder/shooter Elkman (Carl) indicated he builds the most accurate muzzle loader rifles? Not that is like the flea floating down the river on his back with a “woody” hollering: “open the draw bridge!” Hmmmmm? The fact is, yes, Carl can build an accurate muzzle loader but then so can Jeff, Hillbill, Phil, myself and even a few people form another forum. But, what we are seeing are only the results (on paper) from those guns? To be truthful, accuracy has a whole lot more to do with the barrel and the person pulling the trigger.
For the most part, muzzle loader accuracy comes from the barrel and particularly everything forward of the breech plug. About none of which the actual builder has any control over? Put down a charge, load a bullet and it comes out where the barrel is pointed----in a broad sense? So, do any of the people I mentioned actually deep hole drill a virgin piece of steel, ream it, rifle it and lap it? I think not. Drilling and threading the breech end for the plug is kind of a no brainer if one has any degree of mechanical skill. It not 100% necessary that the plug fits “dead center” in the breech! Just close enough for the firing pin to hit it fairly centered and cause it to ignite. Now, this is a horse of a different color when it comes to CF rifles. Here the threaded barrel must be 100% square to the action……….which also has to square to the bolt face and recoil lugs and recesses. Then the “chamber” must be reamed perfectly in line with the bore so the bullet starts straight into the rifling. If it goes in canted, it will shave and come out the muzzle out of balance. This does not happen in a muzzle loader? You push it down the bore and it comes out the same way. Even IF the threads on exterior of the barrel were cut slightly out of square (we are talking in the ten thousandths off) and the barrel was pointing slightly off center (alignment with the scope mount) it would only mean that the scope had to be adjusted to correct for it? Up to this point, I see most all builds having about even accuracy (save for the barrel) It seems it is the quality and tolerance of the barrel that is more a determining factor in accuracy then the guy who screwed it together? And I literally mean that? If you can buy an action and then a pre-threaded barrel and breech plug and screw them together, most can create equally accurate muzzle loaders.
Next up, we have to put our barreled action into a stock. Many come with bedding blocks and pillars. I see pillar bedding as being most necessary with a CF rifle as uneven tightening stresses can somewhat put different pressures on the action. In fact, many precision bench rifles have heir actions glued into the stock. Most of this is unnecessary in a muzzle loader since……..remember? All the action takes place forward of the breech plug. The only real necessity is that the recoil lug make good contact with the abutment in the stock so there is no shifting shot to shot. I don’t think it takes a benchrest gunsmith to put a little J-B, Devcon or MarineTex in those areas to prevent shifting. Another item in the accuracy chain is the trigger. Without a good trigger the shooter will have trouble making the shot break with out disturbing the sight picture. So, we call on Arnold Jewel or Mr. Timney to supply us with a good trigger. (Note: the gun builder does not make these?) You tell me you want a Jewel trigger and I order and put it in.
Mounts and glass …………..There are many that work well and you do need good glass to be able to shoot accurately. You can’t hit what you can’t see? Again, nothing to do with the builder (although they might recommend one?)
So, we have a rifle that was screwed together from parts bought from the individual makers. Everyone on this forum has access to buying these parts……….they are not exclusive to Elkman or Jeff or whomever? We have added someone’s stock and someone else’s trigger, mounts, rings and scope and have a working rifle. Probably hundreds of these out there in the hands of shooters. I go to bench rest matches with 50 shooters present and I would bet 30 to 40 of them (the rifles) are capable of winning the match?................but only one wins…………Not because it was THE MOSE ACCURATE, but because it had the better (at least for that match) shooter directing it!
With our muzzle loaders it’s the bullets, the powders, the loads that play a critical part in the accuracy of any rifle. Carlos shot what he shot-----and I truly believe he did what he did as much as I believe Carl shot what he shot at 1,000 yards not because THEY have the MOST accurate rifle but because they do their homework and are good trigger pullers. Why do I shoot so much and play with so many loads and bullets? Because that is how you find out FIRST hand what works and what does not work? I happen to get some pretty good results with duplex loads……………Carl says I only need single powder loads?...............Not in my book? We are fortunate to have people like Kyle who have made substantial investments to produce bullet capable of good shooters being able to shoot good groups? Dennis at Fury is working on bullet for our muzzle loaders. Guys like Phil “Hammer” have dabbled with the Direct Ignition System (DIS) and Hank with HIS module system. It is people who try and test these systems shooting tons of bullets and powders who make accuracy possible with these guns. Some shoot off suffocated rests, some lead sled, some bipods and a lot of good results occur. Members here and on the other board tinker and come up with stuff. Some works some does not but to say WHO builds the best or most accurate muzzle loader rifle-------------or for that matter, any rifle?...............There just is no answer. It is the ability of the owner to figure out what it takes to make his or her rifle work.
Anyway, I had some free time and it was too hot for outside work so I thought I would put this together. Hopefully, it will get members contributing their thoughts.
