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Post by cpo7usnrt on Jun 14, 2017 15:58:20 GMT -5
Hi Guys.
I am confused, isn't the 45cal center fire bbl the same bore dia as the 45cal muzzleloader bbl ? The muzzy bbl was converted to smokeless by Hank . The 275 gr .451 bullet falls all the way to the breech plug on the muzzy. On the center fire the same bullet will not even start
I took a rough measure of the muzzy bbl with the small hole gauge and I got a rough measure .454 to 456.
I will try a lead slug next.
Joe
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Post by smokeeter on Jun 14, 2017 16:17:18 GMT -5
45 cf barrel is a .458 dia bore.
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Post by Richard on Jun 14, 2017 16:19:23 GMT -5
Most of the barrels we use, such as those by Brux, Krieger etc. have a grove diameter of .458 and a land diameter of around .450. These numbers can vary by a few ten thousandths from manufacturer to manufacturer. It only takes two or three ten thousandths and you will wind up with a loose fit. If your bullet is loose, you will need to knurl fatter with files. Check in the "how to section" on knurling. You should have a sizing die if you want to mess with sabot-less shooting. A small hole gage is almost worthless when measuring to a ten thousandth. Even to .001 it is "iffy". You really need an inside micrometer.
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CONFUSED
Jun 14, 2017 16:52:52 GMT -5
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Post by Kyle on Jun 14, 2017 16:52:52 GMT -5
I designed my AccuMax series at .452" for this very reason. At that time some H&R conversions were out there where a .451" fit loose and shooters had to knurl.
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Post by cpo7usnrt on Jun 14, 2017 19:38:52 GMT -5
I tried knurling with a file and got them to fit but all felt different as to fit. Is there a way for a more consistent knurl? Thanks for your replies. Joe
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Jun 14, 2017 19:48:48 GMT -5
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Post by Kyle on Jun 14, 2017 19:48:48 GMT -5
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Jun 15, 2017 1:15:14 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 1:15:14 GMT -5
All of my h&r conversions are loose. A 275 Accumax fits untouched.
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Post by buckdoehunter on Jun 15, 2017 8:18:32 GMT -5
The muzzy bbl was converted to smokeless by Hank . Did I read this correctly?, your shooting smokeless powder out of a Black Powder muzzleloader barrel? Or you had a different barrel converted for your muzzleloader?
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Post by cpo7usnrt on Jun 15, 2017 9:10:52 GMT -5
The barrel is a CVA Apex 45 Cal. muzzleloader converted to smokeless by Hank. I am limited to 50 gr. of 4198 for a 275 gr bullet.
Joe
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 9:47:03 GMT -5
The barrel is a CVA Apex 45 Cal. muzzleloader converted to smokeless by Hank. I am limited to 50 gr. of 4198 for a 275 gr bullet. Joe I've had good luck knurling a bullet with two bastard files until they won't fit the barrel, I have a 45 cal Douglas barrel. Make sure you have a nice uniform crosshatch across the entire bearing surface of the bullet. My cheap calipers measure them at around .454 and then I smooth form with my sizing die down to a snug fit. I use a .060 veggie wad. Always clean and inspect bullets after knurling for any particulates embedded. There is a big controversy over these CVA barrels. I would suggest you read carefully CVA's link I pasted below. Personally I'd have no problem shooting smokeless powder out of the gun I think you have. Mild loads of course. JMO Some have voiced strong opinions on using a barrel that a manufacture uses for it's muzzle loaders claiming it's against the barrel's intended use yet have no problem converting the same barrels to a smokeless that were intended for use with a cartridge. Call CVA and talk to them, call the guy that put together your gun. Have fun and be safe. cva.com/Apex-Rifle-from-CVA.php#muzzle
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 15, 2017 10:09:20 GMT -5
So a fluted Bergara Apex 45cal ML barrel is just as strong as a Apex full contour 45/70 barrel?
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Post by Richard on Jun 15, 2017 10:15:03 GMT -5
Joe.............If you call CVA they will definitely tell you not shoot smokeless powder....Period. That however is for liability reasons. Realistically, They just want to cover their ass! Do they work? Sure they do, there are many people using them just like Hank converted. It "barrel steel" and regulated by pressure. If you keep the pressures low, as you are doing, there is no problem. You could put on a Brux stainless barrel in the same contour and you would still be in the same boat pressure wise. If you double charge it? Don't matter whether its a Brux, Krieger, CVA or whatever, you are looking at barrel failure. As far as getting a proper fit? Knurl them up larger than they need be and then using your sizing die, squeeze them down for a uniform it. I do it all the time with many of my bullets. In my case, I sometimes have to undersize a bullet, then knurl and then resize. If any of this stuff gets too confusing, send me a PM and I will give you my phone number and we can talk.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 10:39:13 GMT -5
So a fluted Bergara Apex 45cal ML barrel is just as strong as a Apex full contour 45/70 barrel? Go ask someone over on doug's
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Post by buckdoehunter on Jun 15, 2017 10:45:03 GMT -5
The barrel is a CVA Apex 45 Cal. muzzleloader converted to smokeless by Hank. I am limited to 50 gr. of 4198 for a 275 gr bullet. Joe What kind of speed are you getting with that combo? Any interest in a sabot/bullet combo or are you only wanting to shoot sabotless?
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Post by GMB54-120 on Jun 15, 2017 11:21:03 GMT -5
So a fluted Bergara Apex 45cal ML barrel is just as strong as a Apex full contour 45/70 barrel? Go ask someone over on doug's What does Dougs have to do with it or is this asinine answer simply because i post on both boards?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2017 12:39:37 GMT -5
Go ask someone over on doug's What does Dougs have to do with it or is this asinine answer simply because i post on both boards? We've been over this. Let it go.
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Post by Hank on Jun 15, 2017 13:37:01 GMT -5
We have been over this several times. We don't do anything by the book in this sport of Smokeless Muzzle loading. Shooting some smokeless powder out of a Apex Muzzle loader barrel will not hurt anything.
Joe. If your barrel's bore measures .454 you will need to knurl the bullets up some to get a good fit.
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Post by buckdoehunter on Jun 15, 2017 15:27:32 GMT -5
Muzzleloader barrels are for BP or subs only so anything that is posted in the SML section MUST be shot from a gun designed for smokeless, the last thing we need is for someone new to come to Hank's and see someone using smokeless power in a BP gun thinking they can do the same. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but have the posting rules changed and anything goes?
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Post by Hank on Jun 15, 2017 16:40:05 GMT -5
We have done extensive research on Apex barrels and have found out that the muzzle loader barrels are made from the same steel as the center fire barrels. Therefor some of us have came to the conclusion that shooting low pressure loads will be safe in an Apex barrel. The key words here is (LOW PRESSURE).
I surely hope that every time JOE post a question or comment about his Apex muzzle loader that we are not going to have to re-hash this subject every single time, We have been down this road.
The posting rules have not changed............. Just use a little common sense when shooting your muzzle loader. Don't dump 65 grains of 4198 down the barrel of a Thompson Center Hawkins side hammer.
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Post by buckdoehunter on Jun 16, 2017 9:23:07 GMT -5
Good info. on the Apex black powder muzzleloader barrels, I've never seen it posted on here before but I'm still somewhat new to the board.
It was a surprise to read that someone was shooting smokeless from a BP barrel, it's the 'forbidden taboo' on every forum, but hey, I like to experiment too
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